Out of curiosity, can someone form Byzantium while a restored Roman Empire exists?
Why not 'Iran' and 'Eastern Roman Empire', instead of Persia and Byzantine Empire?
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Out of curiosity, can someone form Byzantium while a restored Roman Empire exists?
The "Holy" was added to HRE's name in 1157 and therefore it is very much acceptable to use HRE for CK2.
I am not suggesting however to call Byzantines "Roman Empire", because that's reserved for the restored version. I'm content keeping it the Byzantine Empire, I see no reason to change.
If you are going to argue that we name everyone for their more local terms, then Holy Roman Empire or Sacrum Romanum Imperium (sp?) would probably be the right term, since yes, the Empire did call upon "translatio imperii". Let's face it, CK2 IS Euro-centric and centred (originally) around catholic-christian princes. Then you can of course argue that the de-jure empire, because we have those in their beautiful anacronism, should be a "German Empire", then the Holy Roman one could receive a DLC with loads of juicy mechanics.
I do not argue against the term "Roman Empire", but the whole discussion about roman empires, and what was and wasn't, really is a can of worms.
I usually refer to HRE as the Heiliges Römisches Reich, but I understand if that's hard to remember for some people. I usually accept "First Reich" or HRE on a good day.
Byzantine Empire is Ok. "Roman Empire" is only reserved for players who achieve restoration.
All at once. After all, the name of the state is irrelevant.
English names should be used exclusively for the sake of consistency: I intensely hate mods/dlcs that try to replace all names with native ones.
Persia just sounds cooler, in addition to the reasons mentioned previously. "Iran" makes you think about the Islamic republic, while "Persia" invokes the empires of old. Perhaps "Eranshahr" is fair compromise? Most historical texts do use Persia up until post WW2/post revolution, then switch to Iran, after all.
Byzantine Empire works simply to differentiate it from the reunited Roman Empire, and also from the original Latin, pre-Greek Roman Empire.
Also this
Byzantine Empire works simply to differentiate it from the reunited Roman Empire, and also from the original Latin, pre-Greek Roman Empire.
Also this
Except when different names are used to differentiate different forms of the same state, like Gardariki/Rus
So you want to use the form of a country's name that's most common in English. That's a defensible position. Fair enough.
You also support calling Persia/Iran Eranshahr in game. That's a defensible position. Fair enough.
Unfortunately they're mutually exclusive positions.
I think there is regional difference in the usage of names Persia and Iran. I think that at least in the UK it's common to talk about medieval Persia in academic works.
This got me thinking. What exactly are they referred to amongst academics in the Western world today? Do historians talk of the 'Byzantine Empire', the 'Eastern Roman Empire', simply the 'Roman Empire', perhaps the 'Greek Empire' or all of the above? As an engineer, I have little idea what term is most commonly used in academic circles.
In the same manner, how do these same individuals refer to Iran? Do they call it 'Persia' up until the 20th century, and then just suddenly start referring to it as Iran from that point on? Do they perhaps even call the current state 'Persia'? Or do they perhaps speak of the 'Iranians' and the 'Iranian Empire' as far back as thousands of years, only mentioning the fact that the Greeks called them 'Persians' as a historical point of interest?
Must be some historians around here who can answer this bombardment of questoins I have.o
I haven't really followed what is the latest trend in the Byzantine studies, but I think that both Byzantine and East Roman Empire are acceptable.
The tribe which founded the first Persian Empire referred to themselves as Pars/Parsa. The historical region of Pars/Fars takes their name from them as does the modern form of the Persian language (Farsi). It is true that "Iran" has always been the name of the greater country, however similar cases also exist in Europe (for example, in Russian, there's different words for "Russian" in the ethnic sense and "Russian" in the geographic/political sense).
Seeing as Iranians use dynasty names it doesn't really matter- Europeans (non-dynastic names) called it Persia so an Anglo-Saxon Persia would probably make more sense than an Anglo-Saxon Iran.
The name for Persia/Iran/etc is pretty much a moot point since persian culture gets dynastic names for realms.
Maybe have Persia localized one way when muslim, and a different way when Zoroastrian/other?
And from the US, in school I feel as though it was mostly referred to as Iran. Based on my quick wikipedia research, it seems that under the Achaemenids, they actually referred to their country as persia, but then after Macedonia and back again, under the Sassanids, it was Ehran. So it seems like it was never natively called Persia during the CK2 timeframe.
And as far as ERE/Byz, I honestly didn't know what people meant by ERE at first when I came to the CK2 forums. But then I figured it out, and it makes sense to disambiguate between the two "Roman" empires in CK2.
And from the US, in school I feel as though it was mostly referred to as Iran. Based on my quick wikipedia research, it seems that under the Achaemenids, they actually referred to their country as persia, but then after Macedonia and back again, under the Sassanids, it was Ehran. So it seems like it was never natively called Persia during the CK2 timeframe.
And as far as ERE/Byz, I honestly didn't know what people meant by ERE at first when I came to the CK2 forums. But then I figured it out, and it makes sense to disambiguate between the two "Roman" empires in CK2.
Must be some historians around here who can answer this bombardment of questoins I have.
As a history PhD student at a university in the greater Boston area which will remain nameless, I believe I can answer these questions.
I have several friends in the field of Byzantine studies, and they generally refer to it as just that: Byzantium. The inhabitants of the empire that they call the "Byzantine Empire" are also called "Byzantines." As some others have said, that's because it's the common term we use in English, and it makes things a lot easier. If they need to get more specific (like, say, comparing what's going on in the east to the west) then "Eastern Roman Empire" might be used, but "Byzantine Empire" is pretty standard. Obviously they are well aware that that's not how people in the time saw themselves, but that's not the point. I study Japanese history, but in my seminars we don't call it "Nippon" or "Nihon." You use the standard English terminology, and I think Paradox was right to go that route as well.
The Persia/Iran issue is a little trickier, but luckily one of my roommates is in the Middle Eastern Studies program here and happens to study... Medieval Persia! And she tells me that they usually call it Persia, with the standard caveat that any scholar will give you on pretty much any topic: "it's complicated." But again, because Persia is the standard English term used until more or less the modern period, that's generally the one people use in academia. So again, I would say Paradox was right to go with Persia over Iran in the case of the game.
So that's the academic consensus. I hope that's helpful.
Is it just UK schools where it is taught as Persia? (In terms of English-speaking countries, I mean.)
Well considering that "Roman" culture is just a compilation of conquered cultures and they used mostly Greek culture, you could argue that "Romans" never culturally existed and that the ERE is in-fact Greek.
Not that there is much Persian history taught in the UK, with the exception of the broad mention of it being there in the Crusades, but usually, yes. It is usually referred to as Iran after the Second World War.
Although at university, my lecturers have made a point of saying that we call Persia, but the inhabitants themselves usually referred to it as Eran.
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