Waffen SS
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Because they aren't needed. You might want them, but they don't serve gameplay role that couldn't be fulfilled by using just standard units.
Ok, not needed, but requested, by me and obviously a few others here. To me, 1 of the primary detractions to hoi 3 was immersion or lack of it. There seems to be a dividing line here between people who want the game more streamlined and those that want extra depth to it. I personally would like more depth. I understand there are more pressing concerns for a lot of the other players here and I respect that, but personally, my pressing concern is the lack of immersion in the game.
It is quite amazing how fascinated especially Americans tend to be with the Waffen-SS.
There are no doctrinal, tactical or equipment reasons to differentiate the Waffen-SS units from the Wehrmacht ones.
There were Waffen-SS units with fanatical morale, there were those that fell apart after one hard shove. There were ones which got the cream of the crop and the very best equipment (but then so did the Division "Großdeutschland") and then there were those which only got Beutewaffen and whatever volunteers the quisling government of the respective country could hustle up.
There were those who took part in atrocities and those who did not and when the distinction between Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS fell in 1944 when both were allowed to conscript it becomes really hard to tell what makes the Waffen-SS special, nonwithstanding favour and sponsorship from on high.
So, no, the Waffen-SS as extra special units is not needed for any gameplay or design or realism reason. It was never special enough, nor independent enough nor did their fighting power diverge so much from the German baseline that one would need 'special' units to do that.
The whole Waffen-SS hype is basically an Anglo-Saxon Neurosis meant to slack a thirst for special 'elité' enemies not something actually rooted in reality.
There are no doctrinal, tactical or equipment reasons to differentiate the Waffen-SS units from the Wehrmacht ones.
There were Waffen-SS units with fanatical morale, there were those that fell apart after one hard shove. There were ones which got the cream of the crop and the very best equipment (but then so did the Division "Großdeutschland") and then there were those which only got Beutewaffen and whatever volunteers the quisling government of the respective country could hustle up.
There were those who took part in atrocities and those who did not and when the distinction between Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS fell in 1944 when both were allowed to conscript it becomes really hard to tell what makes the Waffen-SS special, nonwithstanding favour and sponsorship from on high.
So, no, the Waffen-SS as extra special units is not needed for any gameplay or design or realism reason. It was never special enough, nor independent enough nor did their fighting power diverge so much from the German baseline that one would need 'special' units to do that.
The whole Waffen-SS hype is basically an Anglo-Saxon Neurosis meant to slack a thirst for special 'elité' enemies not something actually rooted in reality.
Depth has nothing to do with it.
Just take a division, name it '1. SS-Panzer-Division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler', put whatever units into you feel necessary, press the priority button once they rolled of the assembly line and you got it.
But even from an 'immersion' or 'depth' POV there is little reason to include them.
And then there is always the possiblity that including them might result in quite severe backlash across the internet, that Paradox so far avoided when it comes to HoI.
While I hope that HOI4 is a game with rich detail with lots of immersion this is of little importance to me. So long as things like this (adding units, events and other things) can be modded I am much more interested the structure of the game. From what little I can tell production will be more equipment base and less unit based (like maybe a tank unit will have X number of panzer IIs, Y number of panzer IIIs and Z number of panzer IVs and after a battle it will have lost some of each and any replacements will be from current production. No magic upgrade of panzer IIs into Panthers!). I like the idea of being able to make 10 new panzer divisions that would be empty units unless you had enough tanks in your 'reserve tank park' and trained men in your 'reserve barracks' as well as enough trucks in your 'reserve motor pool'. You get the idea. Units should be structures to be filled equipment from your production and men from your training schools/camps. I would love to be part of the design team for HOI4!
Just stating, I agree with this guy. More then likely, nothing is going to be changed in this area. I have watched the progress of this game since the beginning and I see the direction it has gone and I know that I (we) are in the minority here. For me, it just gets annoying, having to constantly re-name regiments and divisions. It doesn't have anything to do with an obsession with the SS, it has more to do with - when I look at my OOB and my individual divisions and I see various regiments and division names that do not look right, I feel like I have to change them. Not so much asking for an entirely new system for the SS, just a few more units, and the divisional/brigade names re-worked.
Sorry - also arguing with the wife right now, so that may not have made as much since as I meant it to.
So bottom line, I know its pretty much not going to be changed, and I see what you are saying and respect that, but just putting myself in the camp that would like a few more units and the naming conventions changed around a little.
You did not post in moderator color so i can quote you:
so, it is against rules to say that some strategy might have been wise unlike commonly tough... Or what? Or that i said "claim that he denies holocaust is wrong"?
In either way, i see absolutely no reason to give me warning...
It is not against the rules.
It is just false.
And casts quite a bit of bad light on you.
But that is for you to consider.
I believe it is ILLEGAL in Germany, Austria and some other nations to have specifically identified SS units in a game or their particular Rune symbols or flags.
Special Forces, aside from SS, would be fine. All participants in WW II had Special Forces.
It is not quite that clear cut.
You CANNOT have symbols of 'organizations hostile to the constitution' (verfassungsfeindliche Organisationen) which means all symbols commonly associated with the 3rd Reich are out (Swastika, Sig Runen, the works).
The second thing is 'glorification of war' which HoI is sailing dangerously close to.
So putting really actually identifiable Waffen-SS units in the game might be the straw breaking the camels back.
Why does nobody ever demand a detailed system that accurately represents the formation/training/indoctrination/equipment/uniforms/tactics/esprit du corps of the Italian army? The standard game mechanics are not really able to capture these in there complete extend. Yes, letting the AI do everything worked well enough in HoI3 (without expansions), but the developers want to scrap this feature for HoI4.
So they discredit those who have different "opinions". That reminds me of 1930s Germany, Soviet Union and other such nations. And it is stupid that when talking about history i have to say "opinion".
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If you want an elite German unit in the game, it's equally valid to ask about the Afrika Korps, who were just as much an elite, highly motivated organisation as the Waffen SS. Sure, they were just average German soldiers who had great commanders and a great esprit d'corps, but then the same is true of the Waffen SS.
I'd prefer a system where you designate a division an 'elite' unit and it receives various bonuses for being so. This avoids the strange situation in HOI3 where only infantry units could be elite, and where you didn't really feel there was much special about the so-csalled 'elite' units.
And yeah, have the Waffen SS in the game and you might as well have the Blackshirts, Falangists, Foreign Legion etc. in as well.
First time I ever saw that guy on television, he was arguing that Britain should have surrendered to the Nazis in 1940. I'm not going to bother discussing banned subjects, but the man's analysis is bizarre and directed towards a single, despicable end.
I'd prefer a system where you designate a division an 'elite' unit and it receives various bonuses for being so. This avoids the strange situation in HOI3 where only infantry units could be elite, and where you didn't really feel there was much special about the so-csalled 'elite' units.
And yeah, have the Waffen SS in the game and you might as well have the Blackshirts, Falangists, Foreign Legion etc. in as well.
First time I ever saw that guy on television, he was arguing that Britain should have surrendered to the Nazis in 1940. I'm not going to bother discussing banned subjects, but the man's analysis is bizarre and directed towards a single, despicable end.
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Even this is not that clear. There are exceptions. For example you are allowed to use a swastika for educational purposes or antifascist symbols (for example a man throwing a swastika into a trash can).
Yes, this is a problem, but a completely different part of the legal system. This is part of the youth protection law. Games such as Panzer General were classified as "glorification of war". The consequence of this classification is that you can not advertise the game and that shops have to sell the game under the desk after verifying that you are 18.
Actual historians study primary sources (i.e. documents etc. from the time of the event) almost exclusively to build a narrative of a given event. Learning to do so is the entire focus of a university history major. Someone who only reads books to gain a picture of events is simply an amateur (more power to them - they pay for more research). I spent 5 years of study to be a historian, and secondary sources (i.e. books written by other historians) were read only to gain an appreciation of the author's argument, not the historical event itself.
It just seemed odd to single out this man for doing the everyday job of a historian.
EDIT: There is the occasional exception, as when a primary source is no longer available, or cannot be accessed by a given historian. National archives are not always freely open to historians from every country, for instance.
Wow you can actually afford a PC and an internet connection with a degree in history? Canada really is a nice place to live.
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Yes, that is a very valid concern, Forumite 1. While it is definitely not an expression of free speech to speak one's opinion on other people's opinions freely, it is definitely necessary for free speech to exist to either examine any claim of your opponent in detail or not to answer at all.
You are also right with your claim that no historian reads primary sources. Normally, they just copy and paste Wikipedia articles.