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Gonzalo105

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Apr 6, 2011
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So.... every game the only countries that get immigrants are brazil, usa and australia. is there any reason for this?

i know that south and nort america get a bonus, but why all the other countries dont even get any immigrant at all.

thanks in advance.
 
Also AI is very bad in keeping militancy down. And it is designed so the amerikas are about the only ones getting migration. All others can just be happy to keep their POP's from leaving.
 
i never saw any of that, the only countries that i always see geting immigrants are usa, brazil and australia. anyway, any tip to get immigrants with any south american country (excluding brazil) ?
 
The problem IIRC is that a POP decides which is the most desirable country as per their specifics (country size, religion, plurality, religious policy, reforms, +immigration modifiers, etc), and then they ALL go there.

A more ideal way (for Vic3!) might be that they travel proportionately (maybe a little less?) to several top picks. This would split immigration up a bit, letting countries that have 'decent' immigration potential receive closer to a 'decent' amount of immigration, rather than very little.
 
In my experience size is the most important parameter, and luck. Reforms are not that important or at least I couldn't find a significant influence in my games, maybe at the margin.
As test, you can play Argentina stay a dictatorship and focus on eating Brazil, you'll see that with each state taken from Brazil you get more migrant until you dwarf them. Even if Brazil stays moderately democratic and you enact 0 reforms.

But sometimes there's a stroke of luck and suddenly buckets of migrants are dropped on one available american democracy.
 
In my experience size is the most important parameter, and luck. Reforms are not that important or at least I couldn't find a significant influence in my games, maybe at the margin.
Because you won't be able to enact lots of reform in a short time, so it appears to be non-important, but it can have a significant effect. As an example, I was a democratic Mexico, I had all the states that USA is meant to gain cores on with Manifest Destiny (so they don't have cores, since they can't enact it). After cheating myself plenty of liberals in the upper house, my immigration went from 500 (USA 1500) to 1200. And that was with about 8-10 reforms enacted, no state gained. I'd say that 3-4 reforms are as important as one state.
 
Because you won't be able to enact lots of reform in a short time, so it appears to be non-important, but it can have a significant effect. As an example, I was a democratic Mexico, I had all the states that USA is meant to gain cores on with Manifest Destiny (so they don't have cores, since they can't enact it). After cheating myself plenty of liberals in the upper house, my immigration went from 500 (USA 1500) to 1200. And that was with about 8-10 reforms enacted, no state gained. I'd say that 3-4 reforms are as important as one state.

I still think it's a marginal improvement. So, yes, if you manage to massively out-reform your nation you'll get an edge, but most of the time you're not able to do that so you just keep up and have a relatively low advantage.
As full democratic prosperous Mexico, US would get much of the migrants even though they had fallen into a proletarian dictatorship, yet they'd get 10k migrants and I would get 5 catalans (which I'm pretty sure just took the wrong boat). That's late game though.

The same happens with Brazil, they get a lot of migrants even if they fall into dictatorship. In a minority of case, Colombia or USCA gets a big share so reforms have a role, it's just unclear.

Another thought is about infamy, as a player I usually have at least 15 while the AI is much more passive so I'm more wondering if infamy deter migrants, it's not said explicitly but it could be a factor. I don't have the moral strength to play an infamy free game.
 
In my experience size is the most important parameter, and luck. Reforms are not that important or at least I couldn't find a significant influence in my games, maybe at the margin.
As test, you can play Argentina stay a dictatorship and focus on eating Brazil, you'll see that with each state taken from Brazil you get more migrant until you dwarf them. Even if Brazil stays moderately democratic and you enact 0 reforms.
I don't believe the size matters directly. The size comes into play because some of the smaller nations produce low demand goods and that leads to the unemployment which kills immigration. For larger countries it's rarely happens. Another factor is that migrants need a decent destination province (good life rating and low unemployment) and for smaller nations the chances are higher that such target doesn't exist.

Reforms are quite important - you need to get high enough in the immigration rankings to get any migrants. For example, you could release British Columbia and play as them - they have a single state, but number of reforms and thus you'll start getting decent number of immigrants right away.
 
The problem IIRC is that a POP decides which is the most desirable country as per their specifics (country size, religion, plurality, religious policy, reforms, +immigration modifiers, etc), and then they ALL go there.

A more ideal way (for Vic3!) might be that they travel proportionately (maybe a little less?) to several top picks. This would split immigration up a bit, letting countries that have 'decent' immigration potential receive closer to a 'decent' amount of immigration, rather than very little.
That's effectively what is already happening in Vic2. Just instead of splitting a single POP it distributes number of POPs between the top immigration targets (I'm guessing it's done that way to avoid creating a large number of POPs by splitting).
 
I'm all ready to admit my understanding is not perfect, still, in some cases there's a huge difference in reforms and yet the migrants massively go to the country with no reforms, that's why I said reforms are not central.

Democratic Mexico vs Communist US or Democratic Colombia (GP) vs Bourgeois dictatorship Brazil (civilized not even secondary). In both cases I've experimented Brazil and US get most of the migrants with a small boost now and then for the democracies. So maybe there's unemployment in the RGOs, but in both cases, a lot of prosperous factories had lots of room to hire, so it should not be a problem.

Maybe in 1836 differences in reforms are the most important thing but then something else happens.
 
That's effectively what is already happening in Vic2. Just instead of splitting a single POP it distributes number of POPs between the top immigration targets (I'm guessing it's done that way to avoid creating a large number of POPs by splitting).
Yes, the first paragraph is how I believe it works in Vic2.

The second paragraph is I think an improvement over how it works in Vic2.

I don't believe there is any 'distributing' currently in V2, they only go to the top target. For example, you may see 85% of german protestants going to USA. The other 15% go to other countries because other factors (like unemployment, etc) made other countries more desirable, so the another country became each of those POPs's top target.

And yes I believe they did the 'top target' way so that immigrant POPs could simply join existing POPs to create less overhead for the system.

Of course, we're all really just going off of anecdotal evidence here, as the whole system is quite opaque.
 
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I don't believe the size matters directly. The size comes into play because some of the smaller nations produce low demand goods and that leads to the unemployment which kills immigration. For larger countries it's rarely happens. Another factor is that migrants need a decent destination province (good life rating and low unemployment) and for smaller nations the chances are higher that such target doesn't exist.

Reforms are quite important - you need to get high enough in the immigration rankings to get any migrants. For example, you could release British Columbia and play as them - they have a single state, but number of reforms and thus you'll start getting decent number of immigrants right away.

I think that size is a factor, though those other factors you mentioned also count.

Also, in my experience POPs first choose a country, then a target province. So the most utopian province in Europe won't get much (or any) immigration. This is why it's much harder/impossible to get immigration to non-new world gold mines. Russian Alaska gets Russian migration just fine, but not a whole lot of foreign immigration. USA's Alaska has an easier time attracting immigrants.
 
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Yes, the first paragraph is how I believe it works in Vic2.
That's wrong belief though :) If you start the game and watch carefully who is going where you can see that this hypothesis is wrong - pops with the same attributes will go to different countries on a regular basis. Instead of tracking exact movement you can just see statistical results.

The second paragraph is I think an improvement over how it works in Vic2.
Statistical results in Vic2 are consistent with you're suggesting except it distributes whole POPs instead of splitting up and distributing individual POPs

I don't believe there is any 'distributing' currently in V2, they only go to the top target. For example, you may see 85% of german protestants going to USA. The other 15% go to other countries because other factors (like unemployment, etc) made other countries more desirable, so the another country became each of those POPs's top target.

And yes I believe they did the 'top target' way so that immigrant POPs could simply join existing POPs to create less overhead for the system.
POP has some factor to encourage grouping when choosing within country, however the main overhead reduction logic is in merging small POPs (even if they have mismatching attributes)

Of course, we're all really just going off of anecdotal evidence here, as the whole system is quite opaque.
Exact details are unknown, but statistical results allow to build a model that predicts behaviour fairly accurately.
 
I'm all ready to admit my understanding is not perfect, still, in some cases there's a huge difference in reforms and yet the migrants massively go to the country with no reforms, that's why I said reforms are not central.

Democratic Mexico vs Communist US or Democratic Colombia (GP) vs Bourgeois dictatorship Brazil (civilized not even secondary). In both cases I've experimented Brazil and US get most of the migrants with a small boost now and then for the democracies. So maybe there's unemployment in the RGOs, but in both cases, a lot of prosperous factories had lots of room to hire, so it should not be a problem.

Maybe in 1836 differences in reforms are the most important thing but then something else happens.
The dominant factor is unemployment. As the game progresses population and productivity grow and AI doesn't tend to manage unemployment very well; due to low score most American nations can't sell their goods leading to the unemployment which prevents most countries from being attractive immigration targets in later game. If you play as something small (Columbia, Newfoundland etc) and progressive you'll see that you can get a lot of immigrants as long as maintain low unemployment (often more than much bigger USA (that also have additional bonuses))
 
POP has some factor to encourage grouping when choosing within country, however the main overhead reduction logic is in merging small POPs (even if they have mismatching attributes)

I'm aware of this. This is actually one of the reasons it's difficult to tell with any certainty what's happening. If the game didn't do this, we could see exactly what POPs are going where. Unfortunately, I don't think we can.

That's wrong belief though :) If you start the game and watch carefully who is going where you can see that this hypothesis is wrong - pops with the same attributes will go to different countries on a regular basis. Instead of tracking exact movement you can just see statistical results.
I'm not sure you could prove that I'm 'wrong'. Again, if you don't know the exact mechanism, you can only guess as to why you're seeing the results you're seeing.

For instance, that trickle of POPs that goes to other countries (on a regular basis?), which is so tiny that you may as well not consider it in most cases, as I previously explained, is due to other factors making those targets more desirable. Maybe my use of the word 'all' threw you off; when I say all, I simply mean the vast majority :rofl: It is pretty easy to simply load up V2 and see that it's not 'all'. Then again, it's also easy to see that only 1-3 countries in the new world receive the vast majority of immigrants, another 2-4 recieve a trickle, and the other 15-20 receive exactly 0. This is the problem that I aim to fix.

Oftentimes, one country will receive the vast majority of emigrants from a specific other country on a given day. The times that you see POPs migrating more equally are from places like Austria, Russia, France, Germany, Ottoman Empire, etc, which are multi-cultural regions with also multiple religions, which have different factors for each of the different POPs dictating where they will go.

Statistical results in Vic2 are consistent with you're suggesting except it distributes whole POPs instead of splitting up and distributing individual POPs
You're wrong. Maybe I need more explanation. Also, I never suggested they split POPs, though that is one way of doing it. I was thinking more along the lines of each POP having a chance to emigrate to several targets based more closely on the proportional draws towards emigrating to those targets, in the hopes that this way would cut down on overhead.

Even if my analysis of the problem isn't exactly correct (indeed, none can be), my analysis does as good a job of explaining the current situation as any other. And my suggestion to change the situation is that POPs be more proportionally distributed based on the factors for each country, whereas now the vast majority of all POPs go to 2 or maybe 3 countries in the Americas. In Vicky2, immigration chance is FAR from proportional. If you pass a reform as Ecuador, you will probably still see 0 immigrants because the other factors in your country make you an 8th choice for most POPs. What I'm suggesting is that when you increase your immigrant attraction, you should receive more immigrants, assuming you have a significant immigration chance compared to other targets (so, Burma passing a reform doesn't get more immigrants because it still only has 0.1% of the draw of the top immigration choice for any particular POP).

One of the reasons I really like Vicky2 is that it is somewhat less focused on warfare than the other Pdox titles (I've shelved EU4 because the gameplay seems to revolve around warfare... either you're fighting a war, or you're preparing for one...). Migration and immigration is actually one of the weaker points of Vicky2, in my estimation. It's fairly complex but not very dynamic for all that complexity. If I could focus on creating a European or Asian economic powerhouse with liberal ideals, I should be able to work peacefully towards growing through immigration, even if it is only a fraction of the USA's immigration in the end.
 
The dominant factor is unemployment. As the game progresses population and productivity grow and AI doesn't tend to manage unemployment very well; due to low score most American nations can't sell their goods leading to the unemployment which prevents most countries from being attractive immigration targets in later game. If you play as something small (Columbia, Newfoundland etc) and progressive you'll see that you can get a lot of immigrants as long as maintain low unemployment (often more than much bigger USA (that also have additional bonuses))

Well we've been playing two different games then and I'd love to have your version. Because what you say just does not happen in my games, not when I observe the AI (but then I understand your argument and accept that general AI incompetence would favor the big nations)

I've never played Columbia or Newfoundland though, maybe the lack of migration targets in North America make things different ?
I've played small countries in South America and a fully democratic Colombia, with a healthy industry and no unemployment still gets almost no migrants compared to a brazilian bourgeois dictatorship. But if you take 4 states from Brazil then you get a lot more migrants. I've done the different styles, same with Mexico (not a small nation I know), a player controlled Mexico, even fully democratic and industrialized (no unemployment, lots of jobs available) will get 2 thousands times less migrants than a US communist dictatorship.