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awzc26

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Feb 12, 2013
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Let me start this post by saying that on the whole, I think the new mechanic of having all rebels acting under a leader is a good idea, it makes sense and stops opportunistic land grabs. Saying that however, there are a couple of issues I have with it...

As myself and others have pointed out in the dev diaries, without a response so far, making the faction leader vassalise all other faction members for the duration of a rebellion is going to massively weaken rebels in general. At the moment, each rebellious count, duke and king will raise his whole levy and start to invade your lands - with the new mechanics combined with the reduced levys one receives from vassals post patch 2.0 I would guess you will be facing maybe half as many men. So that is my main concern I guess. However, I thought about this, and realised that the people at Paradox aren't stupid - they must have thought about this already. This leads me to my second concern...

More random event troops spawning? This is just conjecture, but the only way I can see Paradox keeping rebels as strong is with more 'troops flocking to enemy banner' events aka one of the most universally hated features on the forum. I feel like this would completely remove any hint of balance as far as rebellions are concerned - why bother blackmailing that duke into leaving a faction if one of the other members will get 10000 troops show up?

So yeah, to sum it up - I'm concerned that rebels will be naturally weaker, and I'm concerned that Paradox will go with the obvious way of fixing this which is to give them an unrealistic number of event troops. If anyone has any suggestions on how they think rebellions should be handled then here is the place to say it!
 
That hadn't even crossed my mind.... Maybe they read the take vultures out of the events and into the military tab thread?
 
The other possibility I could see would be.. well, combining vassalage with an alliance proper. They are all under the new liege, but raise their own troops as normal, meaning that the leader controls the majority of soldiers.. Either that, or a special mechanic to allow the temporary war leader to pull 'All' Levies that his vassls would be able to pull.
 
The other possibility I could see would be.. well, combining vassalage with an alliance proper. They are all under the new liege, but raise their own troops as normal, meaning that the leader controls the majority of soldiers.. Either that, or a special mechanic to allow the temporary war leader to pull 'All' Levies that his vassls would be able to pull.

Either suggestion would suit me. To be honest I see this as an opportune moment to redesign the vassal system when it comes to civil wars - vassals with something to lose/gain on either side should raise their own troops to fight.
 
I have a similar concern that involves succession. If a normal vassal is revolting and the leader dies, the heir is auto-kicked from the revolt faction and allowed to be called to arms. But it also means some new heirs choose to remain loyal to their true liege lord, and don't join the revolt.

However, if all vassals revolting are now joining a revolt title, then a new heir will be sworn to that revolt lord as their liege, and there won't be the chance for their land to change hands back to the original liege until the revolt ends.

I'm just concerned that this takes a game where almost all wars have been attached to personal titles or opinions. The only case when a war continues if the leader of one side dies is if the heir has the same title or claim, and can carry on. But opinion-based wars, like Crusades or Revolts, have never had such stigma attached to them. If your leader dies, you stop warring, as its up to the next leader to determine if this is a worthy cause.

Yet, with this new mechanic, revolts become like title wars and you can't escape or change your mind even between heirs. This makes it more difficult to roleplay and is going to be very chaotic for players. A perfectly legitimate tactic of revolts was to assassinate (or execute if captured) revolting vassal lords to end their rebellion, but now that will no longer be possible. I'm just very concerned on how this is going to play out.
 
I have a similar concern that involves succession. If a normal vassal is revolting and the leader dies, the heir is auto-kicked from the revolt faction and allowed to be called to arms. But it also means some new heirs choose to remain loyal to their true liege lord, and don't join the revolt.

However, if all vassals revolting are now joining a revolt title, then a new heir will be sworn to that revolt lord as their liege, and there won't be the chance for their land to change hands back to the original liege until the revolt ends.

I'm just concerned that this takes a game where almost all wars have been attached to personal titles or opinions. The only case when a war continues if the leader of one side dies is if the heir has the same title or claim, and can carry on. But opinion-based wars, like Crusades or Revolts, have never had such stigma attached to them. If your leader dies, you stop warring, as its up to the next leader to determine if this is a worthy cause.

Yet, with this new mechanic, revolts become like title wars and you can't escape or change your mind even between heirs. This makes it more difficult to roleplay and is going to be very chaotic for players. A perfectly legitimate tactic of revolts was to assassinate (or execute if captured) revolting vassal lords to end their rebellion, but now that will no longer be possible. I'm just very concerned on how this is going to play out.

I'm pretty sure as of now that that doesn't stop rebellions... Correct me if I'm wrong by all means but I thought heirs did take over rebelling wars
 
I have many concerns about the new rebel mechanic. I most certainly share the ops concern about levies infact being weakened due to lower vassal levies but i also dread the possible aspect that comes with relations of rebel vassals to rebel liege. I'm sure paradox will offset possible negative opinion modifiers with a flat opinion boost towards "Faction Leader" but i can also see players abusing this modifier and never finish their faction war just for their own opportunism, much like with rebel/foreign invaders are now. Personally what i'd like to see is a flat +20 relationship bonus to offset some of the worse effects of the new faction Vassal Liege relationship which will diminish at -5 for every 2-6 months you're faction war goes unresolved. This would eventually remove the +20 modifier and then on make you truly susceptible to assassination plots from disgruntled faction members.
 
Paradox could always have adjusted Liege_Levy_Multiplier to 1. I hope. I don't even know what it's supposed to represent. The flavor text for the levy laws seems to operate on the assumption that they're supposed to give it all to you at maximum.
 
Yeah, Marinalite's "give all troops" (perhaps not hard-coded at 100%) and Accrsd "ticking opinion boost" would be really great. As for jordanjay's problem, heir of the rebellion title need not be the heir to rebellion's leader primary title. Same for other members of rebellion - upon their death their primary title might "pass outside realm" if the heir would not/could not join the rebelling faction during peacetime.
 
I've already laid out some too. Link. Pasting:

(re: the temp-king title)

That's a nice concept, but aren't you guys sort of testing it and seeing where it takes you because the temp kingdom mechanic is interesting? I understand claimant and antiking factions functioning like realm kingdoms, just as the Carlistas did or the Jacobites at their best times, but a temporary kingdom for the leader of a Lower Crown Authority faction is not an improvement over how it was before but rather the opposite. Such factions should have councils rather than a single war leader. The same goes for independence factions. They fight together for the independence of all of them, but they don't go independent by acting like a centralised kingdom.

Rather, the AI should use more co-ordination and co-ordinate more smartly with an active role for the primary attacker to play (or primary defender), with the rest of the belligerents on his side somewhat deferring to him by default. The same is true for normal alliances, e.g. the Karlings, Jimena kings or the occasional in-laws on both sides of the Channel. Why should a bunch of LCA fans or separatists be more organised than, say, two post-gavelkind royal brothers fighting a joint campaign against a common foe?

Plus, you've got another problem with rank: a rebel count or duke should still be able to marry or arrange marriages for his relatives. His temp rank complicates matters here by getting him up a tier or two, which shouldn't be the case. In real life you don't get to marry higher just because you're the leader of an LCA or independence faction. Nor should a duke – when you're a count – have 'TempKing is my liege' modifier when you want his daughter and heir for your son.

Also what about Offer Vassalisation and 'too low rank'? Won't jumping from duke to tempking allow you to vassalise a neighbouring count more easily? What about keeping or not keeping such newly gained vassals when your tempking title dissolves?

Then there's the problem of temp kings creating duchies and handing them out... unless you prefer to prevent them from being able to grant titles. In fact, they could also create kingdoms if the faction holds the land if you don't prevent them. A count elevated to tempking could create some ducal titles while being tempking and keep them after the war, even if he lost.

Also what if a tempking goes to war against someone else and e.g. conquers a duchy in a holy war (using the faction forces), creates the ducal title and keeps it after losing the war?

And what with honorary titles and council positions? I can easily see that you might include some code to make sure that the Cupbearer remains the Cupbearer of whatever he used to be before (your permanent primary title) rather than of the faction rebellion, but what about the council? It would make sense to make fellow rebels your spymasters, chancellors, chaplains perhaps, even marshals or stewards, I suppose.

Finally, retinues. A tempking could dump his cash into retinue recruitment with all his new retinue base and actually keep the retinue after losing the war, just like in a republic you can inherit republic-sized retinues as a mere patrician.

(Nothing wrong with all of a faction's forces spawning in the same county, though, even without a temp liege, i.e. when they are all merely allied to each other, just as long as they have the element of surprise working for them.)