How do you decide who to annex sphere or puppet?
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Not true. You can sphere your puppets (and in fact get a +100% bonus to influence gain with them). Nations you annex then release will actually start out sphered as well as puppeted.
Then they are not annexed. This is also not really what i meant by the question. Sorry for poor verbage. When you look at the map how do you decide which nations you should go and sphere? How do you decide who you should go puppet? How do you decide that you should annex a nation?
I hope that clarified what I was trying to ask.
I hope that clarified what I was trying to ask.
Well if you lack oil you want to puppet/sphere country with oil, same goes for other resources.
The other reason should be to find market for your industry to sell its products, preferably low industrialised country (civilized) with decent ammount of pops.
The other reason should be to find market for your industry to sell its products, preferably low industrialised country (civilized) with decent ammount of pops.
Generally, annex uncivilized countries, sphere mid-sized and small countries that can compliment your industry and RGOs, and puppet countries you wish to be a "buffer" between you and your enemies (Example: Germany may want to puppet Ukraine and Poland to create a buffer between Russia). This is not a hard and fast rule, but I offer it is general guidance.
I take it that you are asking for specific targets for expansion. Important late game resources include rubber and oil. Coal/iron is important the entire game. Specific industries require specific inputs which you may lack at the beginning of the game. Search for those (if you intend to have clothing factories, you will need cotton and dye, which are hard to find).
Uncivs to attack or annex before Nationalism and Imperialism
Johore (rubber, precious metal, tropical wood)
Atjeh (rubber)
Abu Dhabi (oil, but low population)
Brunei (oil, but low population)
Egypt (demand concessions for rubber, Dumyat for Suez Canal
Persia (demand concessions for iron, oil, coal areas, but then likely the UK or Russia will sphere it during truces)
Uncivs to Annex After N+I
Korea (coal, iron)
Dai-nam (rubber, trop wood, silk, cotton)
Burma (oil, trop wood)
Thailand (rubber, iron, though these can be taken by demanding concessions before N+I, rather than annexing the whole thing after)
Cambodia (rubber) -- Cambodia could be annexed before N+I but it starts as a Vietnamese puppet, so I usually just fight Dai-nam once after N+I
Oman (oil, makes for good colonization of Africa if you lack East African bases)
Ethiopia (ditto East African bases, coffee)
Sokoto (ditto for West African bases)
Nejd (oil)
Morocco (oil)
Good sphere targets are those civilized nations with good resources, but poor technology/industry
Brazil (rubber, trop wood, they are the neighborhood bully and will expand all over)
Ottoman Empire after they fall from GP status (oil, iron, coal, tons of great resources)
Persia (coal, iron, oil) not technically civilized but I find them a good sphereling
Netherlands if they are not a GP (rubber, oil, sulfur -- frankly, it is worth taking Sumatra and Java whenever the Dutch are weak)
Portugal (rubber)
Mexico (oil)
Venezuela (oil)
Wallachia (oil)
Moldavia (oil)
USCA/El Salvador (rubber)
Ecuador (oil)
Colombia (Panama Canal, coal, coffee)
Spain (lots of good resources, but they have rebellions in the Philippines and elsewhere to contend with.
Anywhere with COAL
I find it also is quite easy to dominate the South American sphere game (Colombia, Brazil, Venezuela get interest from US,Dutch, and the UK, respectively but the whole thing is easily had) and sphere pretty much everybody there; Asia becomes work after you get Japan as a GP. Picking up a portfolio of little orphan spherelings is not a bad idea. In my current Russia game I have 51 spherelings (of 85 countries). I hate getting bounced from Belgium by a determined France, Germany and UK.
Best colonial locations
African rubber states (see http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?593541-Rubber-and-where-to-find-it, esp Katanga, Kasai, Bas Congo, Congo, Congo Orientale, Yoruba, Benin, Niger Delta, S. Cameroon)
Nigeria (Niger Delta, Yoruba States) has coal, rubber and soldiers aplenty
Borneo/North Borneo (rubber, oil, sulfur)
As important is what to avoid: do not contest worthless places with determined powers. Try prying Madagascar from France -- not fun, not worthwhile. The Indian states end up as puppets, meaning the UK gets large influence bonuses with them. Until the OE falls from GP status, their Balkan puppets (Moldavia and Wallachia) are not worth the effort, as the OE will resist losing them, and they get the puppet influence bonus.
A word about China/Japan
China is the big prize, and in a category by itself. Every game sees China do something different. Break apart, stay together, have repeated Boxer Rebellions, lose its substates, keep its substates. A powerful GP can annex all of the substates when they split away from China as uncivs (if that happens).
You can pick apart the Chinese states and demand concessions as often as possible, as early as possible. They have great resources (Chinese areas are dominant in silk, tea and have lots of good stuff like tropical wood, cotton, coal and iron) with millions of people working in the RGOs. Use wars with their allies Dai-nam and Korea (whom the substates will not defend, so your task of whipping China is much easier) to get both the target protectorate plus a concession, and destroy the Chinese Army.
Spherewise, Qinghai has loads of coal, Manchuria has iron and coal. Yunnan and Guangxi have to be sphered through war, as does the Chinese Empire. If the Chinese Empire has lots of reactionary/Boxer rebels, don't sphere them, as you will lose the spherehood when they change governments and may not be permitting military access for your troops to quash their rebellions. And after you have destroyed their army in war, they have nothing to resist the 200k stacks.
Japan was formerly a decent target, as its high literacy helped with RPs. But that is no longer the case (the rules on literacy in colonial states was changed). Plus, the special rules for Japan Westernizing means that if you haven't digested all of it before Japan's early westernization, you have a pissed off Asian power who will hit you when they can, yet is costly to fully digest. I find that Japan is no longer worth it. I'd rather have some more from the Chinese buffet...
Puppeting
I don't do much puppeting. I suppose it could be helpful to puppet a large-ish state (or if you want to weaken the chances of forming Germany or Italy by puppeting some essential part) but I generally haven't puppeted unless I get the free CB. I would only puppet places that either I intend to be continually battling for influence, need their army or for some special diplomatic purpose. Now if I could puppet Brazil or the Ottomans...
Uncivs to attack or annex before Nationalism and Imperialism
Johore (rubber, precious metal, tropical wood)
Atjeh (rubber)
Abu Dhabi (oil, but low population)
Brunei (oil, but low population)
Egypt (demand concessions for rubber, Dumyat for Suez Canal
Persia (demand concessions for iron, oil, coal areas, but then likely the UK or Russia will sphere it during truces)
Uncivs to Annex After N+I
Korea (coal, iron)
Dai-nam (rubber, trop wood, silk, cotton)
Burma (oil, trop wood)
Thailand (rubber, iron, though these can be taken by demanding concessions before N+I, rather than annexing the whole thing after)
Cambodia (rubber) -- Cambodia could be annexed before N+I but it starts as a Vietnamese puppet, so I usually just fight Dai-nam once after N+I
Oman (oil, makes for good colonization of Africa if you lack East African bases)
Ethiopia (ditto East African bases, coffee)
Sokoto (ditto for West African bases)
Nejd (oil)
Morocco (oil)
Good sphere targets are those civilized nations with good resources, but poor technology/industry
Brazil (rubber, trop wood, they are the neighborhood bully and will expand all over)
Ottoman Empire after they fall from GP status (oil, iron, coal, tons of great resources)
Persia (coal, iron, oil) not technically civilized but I find them a good sphereling
Netherlands if they are not a GP (rubber, oil, sulfur -- frankly, it is worth taking Sumatra and Java whenever the Dutch are weak)
Portugal (rubber)
Mexico (oil)
Venezuela (oil)
Wallachia (oil)
Moldavia (oil)
USCA/El Salvador (rubber)
Ecuador (oil)
Colombia (Panama Canal, coal, coffee)
Spain (lots of good resources, but they have rebellions in the Philippines and elsewhere to contend with.
Anywhere with COAL
I find it also is quite easy to dominate the South American sphere game (Colombia, Brazil, Venezuela get interest from US,Dutch, and the UK, respectively but the whole thing is easily had) and sphere pretty much everybody there; Asia becomes work after you get Japan as a GP. Picking up a portfolio of little orphan spherelings is not a bad idea. In my current Russia game I have 51 spherelings (of 85 countries). I hate getting bounced from Belgium by a determined France, Germany and UK.
Best colonial locations
African rubber states (see http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?593541-Rubber-and-where-to-find-it, esp Katanga, Kasai, Bas Congo, Congo, Congo Orientale, Yoruba, Benin, Niger Delta, S. Cameroon)
Nigeria (Niger Delta, Yoruba States) has coal, rubber and soldiers aplenty
Borneo/North Borneo (rubber, oil, sulfur)
As important is what to avoid: do not contest worthless places with determined powers. Try prying Madagascar from France -- not fun, not worthwhile. The Indian states end up as puppets, meaning the UK gets large influence bonuses with them. Until the OE falls from GP status, their Balkan puppets (Moldavia and Wallachia) are not worth the effort, as the OE will resist losing them, and they get the puppet influence bonus.
A word about China/Japan
China is the big prize, and in a category by itself. Every game sees China do something different. Break apart, stay together, have repeated Boxer Rebellions, lose its substates, keep its substates. A powerful GP can annex all of the substates when they split away from China as uncivs (if that happens).
You can pick apart the Chinese states and demand concessions as often as possible, as early as possible. They have great resources (Chinese areas are dominant in silk, tea and have lots of good stuff like tropical wood, cotton, coal and iron) with millions of people working in the RGOs. Use wars with their allies Dai-nam and Korea (whom the substates will not defend, so your task of whipping China is much easier) to get both the target protectorate plus a concession, and destroy the Chinese Army.
Spherewise, Qinghai has loads of coal, Manchuria has iron and coal. Yunnan and Guangxi have to be sphered through war, as does the Chinese Empire. If the Chinese Empire has lots of reactionary/Boxer rebels, don't sphere them, as you will lose the spherehood when they change governments and may not be permitting military access for your troops to quash their rebellions. And after you have destroyed their army in war, they have nothing to resist the 200k stacks.
Japan was formerly a decent target, as its high literacy helped with RPs. But that is no longer the case (the rules on literacy in colonial states was changed). Plus, the special rules for Japan Westernizing means that if you haven't digested all of it before Japan's early westernization, you have a pissed off Asian power who will hit you when they can, yet is costly to fully digest. I find that Japan is no longer worth it. I'd rather have some more from the Chinese buffet...
Puppeting
I don't do much puppeting. I suppose it could be helpful to puppet a large-ish state (or if you want to weaken the chances of forming Germany or Italy by puppeting some essential part) but I generally haven't puppeted unless I get the free CB. I would only puppet places that either I intend to be continually battling for influence, need their army or for some special diplomatic purpose. Now if I could puppet Brazil or the Ottomans...
I don't see much point in puppets, you can only do it to small states and the infamy cost is quite high. So I only do it if I get a frre CB (from another nation nationalizing my investments) or if I play as Colombia (because of Gran Colombia decision).
Sphering is useful for civilized nations which have resources I want / need or they're a big market. Brazil is a good target for rubber and as market. The ottomans also as a market. Taking states from civilized nations is very costly in infamy and I only do it in specific purposes. Annexing civilized nations is even more costly and never that useful (maybe in a great war).
Annexing is for rich uncivs (rich in pops, rich in resources etc.) because then I get direct control of the pops and better resource production.
Releasing part of your colonial empire as puppets can be useful because as they'll be civilized they'll have better production and better migration.
Sphering is useful for civilized nations which have resources I want / need or they're a big market. Brazil is a good target for rubber and as market. The ottomans also as a market. Taking states from civilized nations is very costly in infamy and I only do it in specific purposes. Annexing civilized nations is even more costly and never that useful (maybe in a great war).
Annexing is for rich uncivs (rich in pops, rich in resources etc.) because then I get direct control of the pops and better resource production.
Releasing part of your colonial empire as puppets can be useful because as they'll be civilized they'll have better production and better migration.
I read somewhere on the wiki that sphereing/annexing China was a big no-no due to its armies of artisans being able to out-produce early and mid-game factories. Is this still the case?
If it will make my borders look cleaner, I annex.
If it will make it look cooler to have my name written over their country, I puppet.
Otherwise, then sphere.
If it will make it look cooler to have my name written over their country, I puppet.
Otherwise, then sphere.
If they're small enough (I believe it's three states or fewer), you can puppet them with a CB.
Yes, that is true but in the later game, it is OK, so long as you have strong factories.
In general, it depends on your goal. Expansion largely serves 3 purposes: increase your population, gain access to the resources and acquire consumers for your goods. For the resources, typical HP nation has higher efficiency, so if that resource is in a short supply, annexation would be preferable. However if you've recently civilized nation that looks at somebody like Belgium, you may get more resources by sphering. If you're small nation you may not need the resource in large quantities, so sphering can be sufficient too. To increase your population the only option is to annex. Acquiring consumers is a tricky part. It depends on what state produces and how far ahead you are planning. For example, annexing some dye producing province in the early game may be a good idea, but later when the dye become abundant it can become largely an unemployed state. Sphering is generally a safer option for this purpose, since you don't suffer any negatives, however sphering uncivs doesn't help much since they don't have much efficiency and their pops don't have much money. Additional factor in annexing uncivs is whether you can quickly convert it into a state or not.
Puppeting is usually less useful. The advantages are that you can keep them in your sphere without fighting and relations with puppets don't suffer from infamy penalty, so you can ally them.
In any case, there's no obviously superior choice and number of factors need to be evaluated in every particular case. More subtle involve expected effects of the annexation on your internal politics, pace of the reforms etc...
Puppeting is usually less useful. The advantages are that you can keep them in your sphere without fighting and relations with puppets don't suffer from infamy penalty, so you can ally them.
In any case, there's no obviously superior choice and number of factors need to be evaluated in every particular case. More subtle involve expected effects of the annexation on your internal politics, pace of the reforms etc...
puppeting gives you markets for your factories. say that you're brazil and are industrializing. the rest of south america doesn't industrialize beacuse you shove your jack boot down their throats every other decade. so your factories get to use them as a market for their raws and to buy your manufactured goods. the puppet infamy hit is large but if they have large ammounts of provinces you can take hold of the entire nation at the same time instead of doing it slowly. Only annex if its really worth it like rubber oil and gold regions as these are worth the bloodshed.
If you release a nation and you have high infamy, does that then relieve a portion of that infamy?
I am playing on the POP demand mod and have taken two different states of the Qing Empire as Belgum. Presently only about 4% of my population is my base pop. Currently I am very rich and have lots of pops from taking this territory. It may hurt factories but it has only increased my income and military power.
It's an infamy reduction of five every time, no matter how much infamy you have or how many provinces you release at once. Puppeting is probably more infamy efficient even with this infamy reduction, but it's certainly more time efficient since you can do it all in one war (unless you add war goals mid-war, in which case puppeting is definitely more infamy efficient).
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