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shivan

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May 30, 2006
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Ive read some of the discussion on the martrilinial marriage and some people say they are utterly unhistorical and its just something paradox made up so the game would be fun to play.

Then today I was reading about the danish monarchy. The current monarch of Denmark is Margrethe II of Denmark. She is descended from The House of Glücksburg, which is itself a cadet branch of the House of Oldenburg.
This dynasty (main and cadet) has ruled Denmark from 1448 until today. 566 years is not a bad achievement, its about a full crusader kings 2 campaign.

But since the current monarch is a queen and she is a married to this french dude. Does this not mean the end of the dynasty then when her son succeeds to the thone? Will the son not be of his line?

Im not sure if this is just because the subject is taboo and everyone has just blocked it out, or nobody cares. But if martrilial marriages do not exist then the house of Glückburg/Oldenburgs reign over Denmark will end in just a few years. The queen is very old.
 
I'm sure a lot of people don't really care, in fact it's not uncommon for a royal member to change his dynasty name. George V of the UK changed his dynasty to Windsor to distance himself from his German patrilineal ancestors (House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha/Oldenburgs too). Prince Charles's dynastic name is Windsor too instead of his father's Mountbatten (which he took from his maternal grandparents).

The Capets, however, have a much better achievement. They're still around as Kings of Spain (that's more than a millennium!)
 
Surnames were basically nicknames in Europe, other than perhaps Byzantine aristocracy (Roman surnames had been clearly defined). While genealogies and some form of dynastic consciousness existed, the application of consistent, clear-cut dynastic names and branch divisions and such like, is basically a modern concept.

'Matrilineal marriage' in this game is a metaphor that shouldn't be taken too literally. It just means that the dynastic consciousness and identification passed through the female ancestor, while identification with the paternal ancestor's house was weaker. However, it is still too widely applied and too modern (anachronistic).

Unlike inheritance, dynasties did not pass through females in the middle ages. Even Queen Victoria in 19th century 'married regularly'. The marriage of Maria Theresa to Francis of Lorraine looks like a closer example, but even then, the house was changed, strictly speaking, those were no longer 'normal' Habsburgs.

By contrast, this game does lead to stuff like baronesses from a royal dynasty marrying a lowborn matrilineally and passing on the surname to the kids.
 
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well you also have to consider the games playability vs historical accuracy
a string of bad luck basically means you go game over only because you dont have a son inheriting that can keep your dynasty alive
since this game is based on your dynasty it would be hella annoying and thus taking away "fun to play" if you cant secure your dynastys survival through female family members
thats (imho) the reason why matrilinial marriage is portrayed in this game how it is ... and im fine with it ... sometimes oyu just gotta take some a-historicalism to be able to enjoy the games you play

btw ... historically most of the marriaged we are talking about (female ruler marrying someone "lower status") led to their children becoming a cadet branch
i.e. the Queen of House Herpaderp marries some Noble of House Huehuegurp ... their children most likely became "of House Herpaderp-Huehuegurp"
but since this game doesnt support Cadetbranches in its current state CK2 cant reproduce that without the player going game over.
 
well you also have to consider the games playability vs historical accuracy
a string of bad luck basically means you go game over only because you dont have a son inheriting that can keep your dynasty alive

Yes, that's probably the sole biggest reason 'matrilineal marriage' is in the game. The downside, though, is that it overemphasises the 'surname' and also leads to things like Salian/Capet/Piast/Jimena/whatever baronesses extending the dynastic name through multiple female links.

Also, matrimarried daughters will inherit before brothers, uncles and such like, of whom you may have quite a pool.

Finally, the sheer frequency of use by the AI is troubling.

btw ... historically most of the marriaged we are talking about (female ruler marrying someone "lower status") led to their children becoming a cadet branch
i.e. the Queen of House Herpaderp marries some Noble of House Huehuegurp ... their children most likely became "of House Herpaderp-Huehuegurp"
but since this game doesnt support Cadetbranches in its current state CK2 cant reproduce that without the player going game over.

Yeah, that's similar to the Hasburg-Lorraine example I cited above.

The typical reality was that lands and titles were inherited by in-laws, and in some cases the titles would be kept separate, e.g. the kids would generally assume dad's surname but one of them would take mum's and continue the titles. This happens even modernly, in order to avoid e.g. an ancient barony or Scottlish clan chieftainship becoming another subsidiary title held by a duke. So basically a younger son gets mum's titles and surname instead of everything sticking to the eldest like under normal rules. You could even call that a version of gavelkind.

On the other hand, modern views focus very legalistically on inheritance from the previous holder as opposed to some sort of dynastic ownership of titles*. This has resulted in Queen Elisabeth II matrimarrying, even though there were (and still are) patrilineal Windsors in existence who were not her descendants – for example the Dukes of Gloucester and the Dukes of Kent are descended from her father's younger brothers, which is very close IMHO. Her children were made to continue the Windsor dynasty to avoid a dynasty change, but in any case they would have inherited the throne even as Glücksburgs and princes of Greece and Denmark.

Curious fact: Prince Phillip was born as a prince (and of both Greece and Denmark, actually). They made him give it up so he could marry Princess Elisabeth without holding foreign titles (he went untitled for half a year) – despite being a foreign prince. Talk about someone going nuts about nationalism etc.

* Dynastic ownership of titles vs succession strictly from the previous holder is also what makes a good deal of countries and societies different from France and England (yes, even much of Germany/old HRE had this sort of dynastic community thing).


... In any case, I'm glad that the AI doesn't use matrimarriage as the habitual way of simply having a larger dynasty the way human players do. On the other hand, I'd rather that royal surnames wouldn't be pased on by baronesses to her children born of a lowborn father. Baronesses belonging to houses like Salian, Capet etc. would basically be like the counts of Vermandois, whose name on release was NOT Karling. They were simply 'de Vermandois'. Just like even the Lancasters and Yorks didn't walk around using 'Plantagenet' as their name. Most nobles were named after their holdings, which could result in a large number of different 'surnames' within one family. Dynastic names like Salians, Capets, Piasts etc. are the invention of historians, NOT the kind of surnames like even those known to republican Roman families (the Flavii, Cornelii, Claudii and such like). This with the exception of Byzzies, Armenians and such like.

Also, since gameplay's been mentioned. Suppose a Capet is married off to a countess somewhere in Spain. Possibly better than being untitled, though I guess hanging out at the French court and being of the same dynasty as the liege would've been even better (at least you didn't have a duke for a liege and only then some small-time king like Gallicia, while you're of royal French stock). Generations later the duchy ends up being held by the king or destroyed. The count, a 'Capet', with possibly 2-3 matrimarriages in his genealogical tree, can drag a slew of French dukes and even the king of France himself into his rebellion, with the right CB (some CB's don't allow you to call allies to arms). Having royal roots is cool and dandy, and it's certainly remembered in family tales, but being able to drag the Kaiser or the king of France into your wars for 'same dynasty' is an exaggeration. They could extend the comital house like that, but spawning a whole new generations of royal Capets? Nope. :)

Then again, I guess you have to simplify things to make them convertible into a computer game mechanic. Still, in late historical starts Naples and Hungary are ruled by the d'Anjou dynasty (a third house of the name, not to be confused with the Plantagenets, who were cadets of a previous line of d'Anjous). They can call each other to war, but they can't call France. The same is true for the Latin emperors – even though the first Courtenay emperor was a great-grandson of Louis VI of France in legitimate male line. However, curiously, one could claim that the marriage of Peter of France to Elisabeth de Courtenay (the parents of the emperor Peter II de Courtenay, who succeeded Baldwin of Flanders, the first emperor) was a matrimarriage, since he became 'Peter of Courtenay' basically.

Well, anyway, you were typically known as 'Dude of Dudesbackyard' regardless of your parentage. 'Dudesbackyard' was typically synonymous with 'Dadsbackyard', but if dad owned no backyard, then it could be 'Mumsbackyard'. So basically if it goes like this:

Lord Tankard I of Bogeyville
Lord Tankard II of Bogeyville
Lord Tankard III of Bogeyville

... etc. etc., and at some point Lord Tankard IX has only a daughter, then perhaps there will be for a time a Lord Whatshisname of Bogeyville, followed by Tankard X of Bogeyville and so on, pretty much because Bogeyville is the only thing to name themselves after, anyway, as they only own Bogeyville, and Tankardings (after Tankard I) makes no sense because they're all named Tankard anyway (sort of like these guys, but I think I've seen numerals go up to XL or something in one other German house). The Lords of Bogeyville care that they are Lords of Bogeyville, but they probably don't care much about the surname/dynasty business (they think like: 'we've lords here since times immemorial/our valiant founder centuries ago,' and that's it). Heck, 'Capet' as a surname was invented for the 'trial' of Louis XVI. Kings to this day insist that they have no surnames in the strict sense. In the past, this was true way further down the feudal ladder.
 
Excellent post, NewbieOne. Quite a few forumites overestimate the true meaning of "dynasty" and "surname", which are quite modern concepts made up by historians. Everybody complaining about the amount of matrilineal marriages in the game should read your post. As I see it, the matrilineal marriage in the game basically means that the children are taught to identify with mother and her inheritance and the legacy of her family, not that the children wouldn't get the father's "dynasty" and "surname" if the same would happen IRL.
 
Thanks for that NewbieOne I had wondered when England implemented Mat Marriage and nice to know that it was a very recent thing.

I take it that had Elizabeth I married that her husband line would have taken over as the ruling line, would that have ended the Tudors hold on the throne anyway?
 
Just a quick question regarding modern monarchies, what would happen today if two royal families that represent a country entered a personal union? I know it's not likely to happen at all, but what would happen if the English king/queen becomes the king/queen of Denmark as well?
 
Just a quick question regarding modern monarchies, what would happen today if two royal families that represent a country entered a personal union? I know it's not likely to happen at all, but what would happen if the English king/queen becomes the king/queen of Denmark as well?
Nowadays, generally, a younger son will take the other throne. When Edward VII became the heir to the Duchy of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, he chose to renounce his rights of succession to the duchy to his younger brother.Of course, it is within his rights not to do so, but it would produce a lot of complications if he didn't.
 
Just a quick question regarding modern monarchies, what would happen today if two royal families that represent a country entered a personal union? I know it's not likely to happen at all, but what would happen if the English king/queen becomes the king/queen of Denmark as well?

What you've described is basically the current situation with the UK, Canada, Australia, NZ, PNG, Jamaica etc etc.
 
I think he meant a country with a long history of having it's own monarch suddenly sharing their monarch with another country.

Well, I don't see why that would make a difference? It's often been speculated what would happen if a foreign monarch inherited the British throne - I believe the King of Norway is something like 50th in the line of succession, so it's not totally out of the question. Most legal scholars seem to agree things could basically continue as they are now - even if the monarch wasn't normally resident in the UK, the system would function pretty smoothly.
 
Well, I don't see why that would make a difference? It's often been speculated what would happen if a foreign monarch inherited the British throne - I believe the King of Norway is something like 50th in the line of succession, so it's not totally out of the question. Most legal scholars seem to agree things could basically continue as they are now - even if the monarch wasn't normally resident in the UK, the system would function pretty smoothly.
Except most countries wouldn't want a long absent monarch,especially one that could be regarded as a foreigner. Here in Australia, there are some who see the Queen of Australia as a foreigner and the symbol of continued British domination(which isn't true). For the same reason, a number of countries such as Jamaica and Papua New Guinea actually wants to abolish the monarchy there.This could be worst if a country who happens to have a long tradition of having a monarch would suddenly find it's monarch living in another country and a complete foreigner who might not even speak their language,this is especially true if the country in question actually provides a civil list for the monarch.I very much doubt the British public would be happy if the royal family decides to relocate to Australia and won't return there unless for special occasions.I don't mind maintaining the monarchy here, but I would have preferred it if the House of Windsor just sends one of their junior members over as King/Queen instead of maintaining a Governor-General here.
 
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Except most countries wouldn't want a long absent monarch,especially one that could be regarded as a foreigner. Here in Australia, there are some who see the Queen of Australia as a foreigner and the symbol of continued British domination(which isn't true). For the same reason, a number of countries such as Jamaica and Papua New Guinea actually wants to abolish the monarchy there.This could be worst if a country who happens to have a long tradition of having a monarch would suddenly find it's monarch living in another country and a complete foreigner who might not even speak their language,this is especially true if the country in question actually provides a civil list for the monarch.I very much doubt the British public would be happy if the royal family decides to relocate to Australia and won't return there unless for special occasions.I don't mind maintaining the monarchy here, but I would have preferred it if the House of Windsor just sends one of their junior members over as King/Queen instead of maintaining a Governor-General here.

I'm aware of the situation in Australia, but the fact that you haven't actually gotten rid of the Queen seems to undermine your point. Thanks for sharing your personal opinions, though! Very interesting!
 
I'm aware of the situation in Australia, but the fact that you haven't actually gotten rid of the Queen seems to undermine your point. Thanks for sharing your personal opinions, though! Very interesting!
The reason why we haven't gotten rid of the Queen is because we couldn't be damned.The system's working, no need to fix it if it ain't broken.If we got rid of her, the only people who would benefit would be the politicians. But the argument that the Queen's a foreigner and that getting rid of her would achieve true Australian Independence is often used by the Republicans to gain support for their cause.One thing that got right is that we really should change the flag like Canada.At any rate, the majority of the population doesn't want to get rid of the monarchy, but according to the latest opinion poll,39.4% of the population wants to, which is a quite lot. Having our monarch reside permanently in Australia might decrease that number.
 
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The reason why we haven't gotten rid of the Queen is because we couldn't be damned.The system's working, no need to fix it if it ain't broken.If we got rid of her, the only people who would benefit would be the politicians. But the argument that the Queen's a foreigner and that getting rid of her would achieve true Australian Independence is often used by the Republicans to gain support for their cause.One thing that got right is that we really should change the flag like Canada.At any rate, the majority of the population doesn't want to get rid of the monarchy, but according to the latest opinion poll,39.4% of the population wants to, which is a quite lot. Having our monarch reside permanently in Australia might decrease that number.

I know that the Republicans use the "She's a foreigner" argument, but that's what I mean - they use it, but it doesn't work.