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Thread: Is the Khazar kingdom too small?

  1. #1
    Captain Mizz2's Avatar

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    Is the Khazar kingdom too small?

    I think it is too small,as for this map:

    As you see,it was alot bigger in 850,So what happened in 17 years?

  2. #2
    I guess the Chasarem Reich lost too much land.
    It makes sense because in my game, the Tengriism to the east keeps eating it up.
    Also, it doesn't really make sense that the region's population ISN'T Jewish either.

    As a side note: I like these German names. Byzantinisches. ^.^

  3. #3
    Aὐτοκράτωρ Konstantinos XV's Avatar
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    Vanilla de jure setup is all sorts of wrong there to maintain a proper Khazaria till Grand Princes or Cumans invade and mortally cripple it. Oh wait, that former never happens, the latter happens a century and a half too early. Why would you want to play in the steppe anyways, when you can play vikings and soon Indians?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingDeleters View Post
    As a side note: I like these German names. Byzantinisches. ^.^
    Sounds weird.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Konstantinos XV View Post
    Vanilla de jure setup is all sorts of wrong there to maintain a proper Khazaria till Grand Princes or Cumans invade and mortally cripple it. Oh wait, that former never happens, the latter happens a century and a half too early. Why would you want to play in the steppe anyways, when you can play vikings and soon Indians?
    Tribal Invasion CB, plus it is fun being a horde and absolutely wrecking Europe's shit. Slowly create Tataria and use invasion CBs to rampage all the way to the Rhine, then switch to someone opposite the Rhine and try to take advantage of the Cuman super empire when it inevitably collapses.

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    Captain Malvius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurningEGO View Post
    Sounds weird.
    I think the adjective "byzantinisch" in german, my mothertongue sounds awesome.
    But I also like byzantine, the englisch one

  7. #7
    Patrician of House Peretz n00bypl4y3r's Avatar
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    From my research into my Khazar mod, by 867 (about 17 years after that map) most of the north west had fallen to Norse adventurers and Magyars, and the very north was mainly tributary states anyway, not necessarily part of the Qaganate.

    I've got a map of Khazaria in my mod, if you want to check it out: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...hazaria-Flavor
    That's how I think Khazaria should be in 867.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingDeleters View Post
    Also, it doesn't really make sense that the region's population ISN'T Jewish either.
    Only the upper class converted to Judaism. It barely makes sense in game to even have Itil being Jewish.
    I guess I won WritAAR of the week one week, so yeah. Yay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Konstantinos XV View Post
    Vanilla de jure setup is all sorts of wrong there to maintain a proper Khazaria till Grand Princes or Cumans invade and mortally cripple it. Oh wait, that former never happens, the latter happens a century and a half too early. Why would you want to play in the steppe anyways, when you can play vikings and soon Indians?
    Khazaria does not fall very often in my games or does so later in them than usual. Even AI is not that stupid as to not use the 1000 gold it was given to something useful.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by n00bypl4y3r View Post
    Only the upper class converted to Judaism. It barely makes sense in game to even have Itil being Jewish.
    Oh. I never see the population form into Judaism anyways.

  10. #10
    anyway the khazar kingdom was living it s last years in the timeframe.

    No one cares about it...

  11. #11
    Patrician of House Peretz n00bypl4y3r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreiTLC View Post
    anyway the khazar kingdom was living it s last years in the timeframe.

    No one cares about it...
    Khazaria under the Bulanids survived until the last few years of the 960s, and under later monarchs (for example Georgius Tzul) lasted until the late 1020s. That's an additional 100-160 years after TOG start. The Danelaw (which apparently everyone cares about in this game) also lasted until around the year 960, and the Karlings were destroyed even earlier than 960.
    I guess I won WritAAR of the week one week, so yeah. Yay.

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  12. #12
    Aὐτοκράτωρ Konstantinos XV's Avatar
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    In regard to OP, to the northwest in Russland varangians happened (Askold, Dir, Rurik and Oleg). And Volga was finally breached (look above Sarkel) by migrating Magyars and Pechenegs that settled Dniestr-Don steppes. In the upheaval it was hard to maintain the tentative suzerainty over Volga Bulgaria and Mordvins. And yet it took relentless assault by Svyatoslav and Oguzes to finally bring Khazaria down some 100 years into the game and let it succumb to Pechenegs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damarrocarion View Post
    Khazaria does not fall very often in my games or does so later in them than usual. Even AI is not that stupid as to not use the 1000 gold it was given to something useful.
    Last I checked it used to immediately spend 800 for a new holding.
    Here are its problems:
    * titular title that everyone wishes to get independent from,
    * including the weird huge Alania right where the heartland of Khazaria is on that map
    * the rest of its land belonging to the huge weird de jure Cumania
    * Cuman khan having de jure Cumania title from the get go
    * my personal pet peeve - Samandar that doesn't belong to Khazaria

    Anyways, I'd argue for de jure overhaul of the region, including splitting of Cumania, breaking down all the large duchies into smaller ones, including the huge Alania that is to be absorbed into the Khazarian kingdom, expanding Taurica towards Don (welcome pad for Pechenegs and all the other future Crimean khans), absorbing Turkestan into remaining Cumania (this will become unnecessary with the RoI steppe expansion though), Cuman invasion of the Pontic steppe in the early 11th century (yes, of course I expect Seljuks to finally be targeting Persia one day).

  13. #13
    Patrician of House Peretz n00bypl4y3r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konstantinos XV View Post
    * my personal pet peeve - Samandar that doesn't belong to Khazaria
    Samandar and Derbent had been lost to the Muslims since the end of the Second-Arab Khazar War, which ended with the capture of Itil and Khazar conversion to Islam in 737. Five years later the Third Fitna and the Abbasid Revolution gave Khazaria a chance to throw off the Islamic leadership, and they converted to Judaism.
    I guess I won WritAAR of the week one week, so yeah. Yay.

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    Aὐτοκράτωρ Konstantinos XV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n00bypl4y3r View Post
    Samandar and Derbent had been lost to the Muslims since the end of the Second-Arab Khazar War, which ended with the capture of Itil and Khazar conversion to Islam in 737.
    Except Samandar was later recaptured. It is specifically mentioned as one of Svyatoslav's targets. One contemporary Muslim historian claims that it was ruled by a Jew in the early 10th century if memory serves, and I don't think anyone contends that its population remained Khazarian.

    Edit: Semender is a perfect candidate for the Caspian-Khazar duchy to be split away from Alania in my book.

  15. #15
    Apprentice Modder User29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n00bypl4y3r View Post

    Only the upper class converted to Judaism. It barely makes sense in game to even have Itil being Jewish.
    You Don't Know that. NO ONE knows that. Do NOT claim knowledge no one has access to yet.

    This is my biggest pet peeve. You can say whether it was likely or not that the population was or wasn't jewish but there are no records going either way definitively saying one way or the other what the population's faith was. Why are you even so damn sure of yourself?

    Sorry if that came out sounding hostile, I'm not holding any resentment, but how can you claim such a thing without evidence, which no one has?
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  16. #16
    Patrician of House Peretz n00bypl4y3r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by User29 View Post
    You Don't Know that. NO ONE knows that. Do NOT claim knowledge no one has access to yet.

    This is my biggest pet peeve. You can say whether it was likely or not that the population was or wasn't jewish but there are no records going either way definitively saying one way or the other what the population's faith was. Why are you even so damn sure of yourself?

    Sorry if that came out sounding hostile, I'm not holding any resentment, but how can you claim such a thing without evidence, which no one has?
    Because:
    1) We have found several settlements from Khazaria dating to after the period of conversion. Only one (what we think is Itil) had any Jewish symbols in it.
    2) We only have one letter written in Hebrew not from the upper class, which is the Kievian Letter, which was still probably sent to the former upper class of the city after it was taken during the slow decline.
    3) Even in the Kievian Letter, we don't know if they were even Khazars. There were several names in the letter, ranging from Slavic, to Hebrew to Turkic names.
    4) Several Arabic visitors described the country as being Pagan, even after conversion. The only spot that they described people following Judaism was the area surrounding what was left of Itil in the 1000s.
    5) The upper and lower classes were clearly divided, even in terms of culture and race. The upper class was described as fair skinned with reddish hair and the lower class was described as darker skinned, almost Indian. Quote from Wikipedia: "The 10th-century Muslim geographer al-Iṣṭakhrī claimed that the White Khazars were strikingly handsome with reddish hair, white skin, and blue eyes, while the Black Khazars were swarthy, verging on deep black, as if they were "some kind of Indian"." Coming from this, it can be assumed that the upper and lower population most likely had different religious backgrounds as well, similar to the early conversion of Islam with the Volga Bulgarians, and the Cumans entering Hungary during the Mongol Invasions.

    I mainly look at how the old Uyghur Khaganate worked, which had most of its upper class practicing Manicheism, but most of its population still Tengriist or Buddhist.

    I could be wrong, but this is what I've taken from all my reading about the Khazars. I am of course limited in what I could know, being still in High School in the Bible Belt, where a book about Judaism would never reach a school, and even less of a chance of one about the Khazars.
    Last edited by n00bypl4y3r; 10-02-2014 at 00:09.
    I guess I won WritAAR of the week one week, so yeah. Yay.

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    You should take those maps of Khazaria with a grain of salt. In fact you shouldn't trust to any maps of the Steppe nations which you might see. In the Steppe the borders often fluctuate and allegiances of the tribes did change. In any case, like others mentioned expansion by Rus, Magyars and Pechenegs reduced the Khazar territory. We don't even know when exactly these migrations took place and we only have vague ideas about who controlled which territory and when.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by n00bypl4y3r View Post
    Because:
    1) We have found several settlements from Khazaria dating to after the period of conversion. Only one (what we think is Itil) had any Jewish symbols in it.
    2) We only have one letter written in Hebrew not from the upper class, which is the Kievian Letter, which was still probably sent to the former upper class of the city after it was taken during the slow decline.
    3) Even in the Kievian Letter, we don't know if they were even Khazars. There were several names in the letter, ranging from Slavic, to Hebrew to Turkic names.
    4) Several Arabic visitors described the country as being Pagan, even after conversion. The only spot that they described people following Judaism was the area surrounding what was left of Itil in the 1000s.
    5) The upper and lower classes were clearly divided, even in terms of culture and race. The upper class was described as fair skinned with reddish hair and the lower class was described as darker skinned, almost Indian. Quote from Wikipedia: "The 10th-century Muslim geographer al-Iṣṭakhrī claimed that the White Khazars were strikingly handsome with reddish hair, white skin, and blue eyes, while the Black Khazars were swarthy, verging on deep black, as if they were "some kind of Indian"." Coming from this, it can be assumed that the upper and lower population most likely had different religious backgrounds as well, similar to the early conversion of Islam with the Volga Bulgarians, and the Cumans entering Hungary during the Mongol Invasions.

    I mainly look at how the old Uyghur Khaganate worked, which had most of its upper class practicing Manicheism, but most of its population still Tengriist or Buddhist.

    I could be wrong, but this is what I've taken from all my reading about the Khazars. I am of course limited in what I could know, being still in High School in the Bible Belt, where a book about Judaism would never reach a school, and even less of a chance of one about the Khazars.

    Although all that you say sounds plausible, I'd love to see some sources.
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