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Reformed Norse not having access to Jomsvikins is probably because they are still Old Norse (so a heresy) and therefore are unable to be used until they are converted to Reformed Norse.
 
Suggestion: If you own a holy order, others, of the same faith, who are fighting infidels can call on your order/you can offer your service, but the other has to pay the orders upkeep. It would add flavour, and another political tool.

I do believe it's time for a HO DLC.
 
Reformed Norse not having access to Jomsvikins is probably because they are still Old Norse (so a heresy) and therefore are unable to be used until they are converted to Reformed Norse.

Don't you think the order should convert together with the ruler???

Another issue: taking advantage of the ambiguous title status of holy orders allows one to play as a theocracy, including the Pope.

Whaaa...??? How?!?
 
Don't you think the order should convert together with the ruler???



Whaaa...??? How?!?

Start: Pope landed in Rome, catholic holy order just created due to event and as yet unlanded

Next: use the counsel to give your ruler the holy order title (e.g., give_title d_knights_templar)

Next: use the counsel to give your ruler the county of Rome (give_title c_Roma)

Next: use the counsel to give your ruler the title to the Papal States (give_title k_papal_state). The Papal States title is the Pope's primary title in the game and makes you the Pope.

This is how I did it. I have a saved game named "play as the Pope." Yes, it involves use of the counsel so it is not completely legit given the mechanics of the game and not possible using Ironman mode. As you may know, normally giving your ruler the title to the Papal States automatically ends the game. This situation seems to persist even if you are an emperor (i.e., the Papal title would not be your primary title so you should really get some sort of "wrong holding" penalty similar to when you directly hold temple holdings). It seems to be hardcoded with the title. The key is that there is something some sort of hardcoding for holy orders that forces the title holder to be a feudal ruler. This coding seems to counteract the coding for the Papal State making you a theocracy. It is key that you give your rule the holy order title first, as giving the Papal State title first will end the game. Also, I cannot guarantee this will work. It worked for me but it took me several tries and I may be missing something.

On a related note, Paradox certainty planned for human players to at least access the Pope's character to some degree. Many of the events in which you interact with the Pope as a feudal ruler have counterparts if you play the Pope. They would have not gone through all the trouble to give the Pope events if only the AI was to use the title.

Also, you may have to "unland" yourself of your other titles first. You can do this by giving yourself the unlanded holy order title then giving all your original titles to other characters all using the counsel. Yes, you will possess one title with no holdings. You are unlanded. Don't worry, the game won't end. You can remain as an unlanded holy order perpetually and not have the game end (another "oddity"). This may establish the hold order as your "primary" title and prevent the transition to a theocracy. Note: you will be the Pope, but as a feudal rule you will have a normal portrait (not the special Pope portrait).
 
Start: Pope landed in Rome, catholic holy order just created due to event and as yet unlanded

Next: use the counsel to give your ruler the holy order title (e.g., give_title d_knights_templar)

Next: use the counsel to give your ruler the county of Rome (give_title c_Roma)

Next: use the counsel to give your ruler the title to the Papal States (give_title k_papal_state). The Papal States title is the Pope's primary title in the game and makes you the Pope.

This is how I did it. I have a saved game named "play as the Pope." Yes, it involves use of the counsel so it is not completely legit given the mechanics of the game and not possible using Ironman mode. As you may know, normally giving your ruler the title to the Papal States automatically ends the game. This situation seems to persist even if you are an emperor (i.e., the Papal title would not be your primary title so you should really get some sort of "wrong holding" penalty similar to when you directly hold temple holdings). It seems to be hardcoded with the title. The key is that there is something some sort of hardcoding for holy orders that forces the title holder to be a feudal ruler. This coding seems to counteract the coding for the Papal State making you a theocracy. It is key that you give your rule the holy order title first, as giving the Papal State title first will end the game. Also, I cannot guarantee this will work. It worked for me but it took me several tries and I may be missing something.

On a related note, Paradox certainty planned for human players to at least access the Pope's character to some degree. Many of the events in which you interact with the Pope as a feudal ruler have counterparts if you play the Pope. They would have not gone through all the trouble to give the Pope events if only the AI was to use the title.

Also, you may have to "unland" yourself of your other titles first. You can do this by giving yourself the unlanded holy order title then giving all your original titles to other characters all using the counsel. Yes, you will possess one title with no holdings. You are unlanded. Don't worry, the game won't end. You can remain as an unlanded holy order perpetually and not have the game end (another "oddity"). This may establish the hold order as your "primary" title and prevent the transition to a theocracy. Note: you will be the Pope, but as a feudal rule you will have a normal portrait (not the special Pope portrait).

You mean console?

Well that's just not a bug then...using the console means circumventing the game; that needs no fixing nor is an issue at all. How can a member of a Catholic HO become Pope through <normal> means???
 
You mean console?

Well that's just not a bug then...using the console means circumventing the game; that needs no fixing nor is an issue at all. How can a member of a Catholic HO become Pope through <normal> means???

Yes, sorry the console. Well in the default scenario its not possible to play the pope even with use of the console and/or any cheat codes, edits, mods, etc. So it does at least represent a departure from the standard procedure.
 
Yes, sorry the console. Well in the default scenario its not possible to play the pope even with use of the console and/or any cheat codes, edits, mods, etc. So it does at least represent a departure from the standard procedure.

Would a simple solution be immediately end the game if the player becomes a grandmaster?
 
Would a simple solution be immediately end the game if the player becomes a grandmaster?

Yes. Just impose the theocracy ban on holy orders.
 
Well as it could happen by "accident" that one inherits an Holy Order the automatic Game Over not seems correct to me...

IMHO Holy Orders should be playable, they aren't theocracies as the same way as Bishorships in the end for sure they should be more fun, obviously they should fix the "little" problem of the money landing...

I'm sure in previous versions you could select them and play them without getting the "you cannot play a theocracy!".
 
Well as it could happen by "accident" that one inherits an Holy Order the automatic Game Over not seems correct to me...

IMHO Holy Orders should be playable, they aren't theocracies as the same way as Bishorships in the end for sure they should be more fun, obviously they should fix the "little" problem of the money landing...

I'm sure in previous versions you could select them and play them without getting the "you cannot play a theocracy!".

If so, it was a bug. They were never playable. And they don't fit the game mechanics. It's a bug that you can inherite them.
 
Yes it weren't normally dynastic but in some cases happened that a ruler became a Grand Master of a Holy Order... in that case they could be playable with maybe interesting mechanics (as already said called in holy wars in which you get really the moneys!) and with a special CB to get the money that you have prestated...
 
Yes it weren't normally dynastic but in some cases happened that a ruler became a Grand Master of a Holy Order... in that case they could be playable with maybe interesting mechanics (as already said called in holy wars in which you get really the moneys!) and with a special CB to get the money that you have prestated...

Some cases? I don't know any. Could you say one or two? And I mean Grand masters not administrators during a interregnum. It didn't happen and shouldn't happen. If they make Holy Orders playable, then with own mechanics and not in this way.
 
An example that I've found is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_tradition_of_the_Knights_Hospitaller

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_I_of_Russia

this an example of a Holy Order in Personal Union with a Monarchy (there's an image in which the Tzar has the crown of Grand Master, too)!
Yes one could argue that:

- the Order was pretty dead in XIX century, the crusades long gone
- This could considered one schism (or the start of it) as the "true" Grand Master is in Rome now, nevertheless the remnants of the Romanov considers themselves as Grand Master

another example the order of "Saints Maurice and Lazarus":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saints_Maurice_and_Lazarus

Yes to make the order playable should have to have the dynastic aspect of the game as done with the Republics should be done... in the article posted it talks of "hereditary commanders" they could the guys we play (the special holding be a "priory") and one of them could elected the next Gran Master...
 
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An example that I've found is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_tradition_of_the_Knights_Hospitaller

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_I_of_Russia

this an example of a Holy Order in Personal Union with a Monarchy (there's an image in which the Tzar has the crown of Grand Master, too)!
Yes one could argue that:

- the Order was pretty dead in XIX century, the crusades long gone
- This could considered one schism (or the start of it) as the "true" Grand Master is in Rome now, nevertheless the remnants of the Romanov considers themselves as Grand Master

another example the order of "Saints Maurice and Lazarus":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saints_Maurice_and_Lazarus

Yes to make the order playable should have to have the dynastic aspect of the game as done with the Republics should be done... in the article posted it talks of "hereditary commanders" they could the guys we play (the special holding be a "priory") and one of them could elected the next Gran Master...

Both are outside of the game timeline. So no. It shouldn't be possible. And the other one isn't a Holy Order like Teutonic Knights, Templars etc. It's just a chevalry order which is a little bit different I think.
 
Yes now is a cavalry order, but in medieval times was an holy order at least if Wikipedia is correct... it states that it is probably the older too!

Yes they are out of timeline but what's the problem in this? Why the history cannot go in different way and things happens before?

Then why we don't add Panzers? They could have found them earlier (look at Da Vincy!).

I don't get why they should add it. If they introduce Holy Orders then with own features. Not as a king became Grand Master of a Holy Order. And yes they were Chivalric orders... But not like the Teutonic Knights etc. This were orders like the Order of the British Empire where you became Knight. But not militaric orders (at least at the point were the Savoys get the order). The Order of the Garter is not a Holy Order in game terms too. And this would be the best to compare.

What you mean are dynastic orders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynastic_order_of_knighthood
 
Then why we don't add Panzers? They could have found them earlier (look at Da Vincy!).
Actually, That would be kind of cool. Crappy proto-tanks, In my dynasty game? yes thank you.

Alt history always makes me happy, though it would obviously have to have severe drawbacks.
 
I've just been watching some really odd Holy Order behavior in my current game. My liege the king of France, Aquitaine and Galatia just died. His young son then gets a Holy War for the Kingdom of Galatia declared against him by a Muslim Empire. The Knights Templar join his war, which is only proper. Then the Duke of Toulouse declares a claim war for Kingdom of France. Toulouse has 13,000 soldiers. The king of France has about 22,000 soldiers, but most of them are the attached Templar army. He keeps marching them into battle and getting slaughtered because the Templars stand aside and his 5,000 men are no match for the 13000 man army they are attacking. So he raises more levies and tries again, still with the Templars attached to his army. For crying out loud, the AI should "know" that the Templars wont fight against fellow Christians, so they should be detached and sent against the Infidels where they would probably be winning. Instead, the little King seems to think he has a massive army which he can use against his rebel Duke when most of the troops will only fight against Infidels or Heretics.
 
Issue obviously very present, further elaborated:

6. Adventurers. Many, many celibate holy order members (monks) end up launching adventurer hosts to conquer their family lands or some other lands.

Thread: My Monk Brother

Basically, I am playing as the King of England. My brother, who has been a monk since age 14 had the audacity to declare war on me for the Kingdom, and I am relatively certain I will lose. Due to a still ongoing war with the HRE, I lost half my levies, yet haven't won that conflict. My brother has easily 20,000 troops as compared to my 8000, with the HRE constantly landing more troops to complicate things further. I just find it exceedingly odd that a man who willingly chose to be disqualified from inheritance, and who won't be able to produce heirs or marry, has decided to adventure war me for the kingdom. How hard can it be to add an extra line of code that would make monks not do such things? It's simply preposterous, and will ultimately end in a dark age for my House, during which our political interests won't be upheld by the crappy AI.
 
AI issue

The AI lacking issue, seems pretty big:

the AI has trouble using Holy Orders. Instead they'll raise them, then disband them, and continue to do so until they run out of piety. I've even seen the AI keep a Holy Order raised long enough to attack an enemy stack, only to disband it in the middle of the fight.
 
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