North Korea Mode

Matt88 said:

That's a smart question. Thanks for asking it instead of immediately attacking the guy because you didn't share his opinion. So let me answer it for you...

On paper it might look like you're giving both the player and AI the same checks and balances on their power. But in execution you're honestly just hurting the AI more than anything.

The player is going to be smart enough to do these things:

1. Own every possible holding in a capital (even the temples and cities) then throw his marshal in there to train troops and buff his personal demesne as high as possible.

2. Make sure his capital is on a rich 6-7 holding county, instead of whatever the 'official' capital of the empire/kingdom is. Which is more commonly a 3 holding county.

3. Utilize the fullest extent of their demesne cap. A player mostly isn't going to be happy with anything less. Depending on how much his vassals like him, he may even push it further to 2 or 3 holdings above the cap.

4. Focus on militarization techs to buff his retinue ASAP. On top of making smart retinues instead of just picking stuff seemingly at random.

5. Boost their economy... by doing stuff such as use republic vassals, set tax laws high (AI usually prefers to keep them low), borrow+expelling the jews, asking from the pope, etc. All this helps you win the mercenary race. A player good enough at this can even keep mercenaries as a permanent standing army and still make profit.

6. Go out of their way to vassalize possible holy orders.

And so on... there's just so many things the player can do that the AI can't or won't. So with vassal levies at the way they are now you could argue that the game is actually easier.

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So then it seems that punishing nations (aka players) that go over their limits is warranted. It helps correct an obvious exploit, and brings the situation at least a little bit back towards parity. The AI is never going to be better than the player, but at least we can make it offer a challenge.

A-D. said:

NK Mode is a workable model of government. You named it after NORTH KOREA, which last i checked, actually exists.

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NK Mode is just a name for an impossible fantasy existing only in your head and in CK2 exploits, the closest real life resemblance is North Korea. I theorized why it's called NK Mode...I didn't name it.

frolix42 said:

Given that it's a only a game designed to simulate history, what NK Mode represents is disconnected from reality. NK Mode is probably how Kim Jong Un wishes things could work.

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For a moment you seemed to realize this, but now you don't. <3 People directly contradicting themselves is hilarious and why I'm here

A-D. said:

NK Mode is not historical, it isnt even how North Korea works. Kim Jong-Whoever is the de facto dictator, but he has people under him that control the country, just because he is the de-facto leader does not mean he also does all the taxes, the budget and so forth.

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A-D. said:

So, that said, if you have all these people which help run things but arent barons, you control them. The game does not represent them because otherwise you would have MILLIONS of characters, not just a couple 100.000, no actually millions. Im not even going over the rest of your rant because clearly you dont understand what im actually saying, probably because you simply refuse to actually check up on things.

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CK2 isn't designed with a Vicki style POP system. So what? This means it's an exploit if you can easily remove all the triggers for rebellions in the game. Then you assert without cause that it's realistic that people can't rebel anymore because they aren't powerful enough.

A-D. said:

And clearly, you dont read history books or you would know that there were titles beneath a baron, just because they didnt hold land per se does not mean they didnt exist.

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I'm kind of sad for you. Very often they did hold land, of course smaller than what CK2 arbitrarily defines as a barony. And I did reference them.

frolix42 said:

...all over the world knights and theigns...

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The title holders and people below Baron rank were capable and very often willing to organize revolts. That CK2 doesn't have the mechanics to simulate this is regrettable but understandable.

Kenlin said:

You are ignoring the problem entirely. What is stopping these people from ousting their absent, tyrannical liege?

In real life, it would be absolutely nothing.

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Thank you.

A-D. said:

Have you read what i responded to? Serious question, it answers your own when you see it.

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I have read your very long posts. Most of it isn't relevant and it doesn't answer Kenlin's valid question.

Grell74 said:

How is Paradox's proposed nerf to going over the demesne limit going to address the ai "passively accept imprisonment and banishment, one by one, without protest"?

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It doesn't address it directly, no patch is perfect, but it's only possible to abuse create/imprison/banish when no one can get mad at you for the tyranny that incurs. Here is why create/imprison/banish's usefulness will be severely curbed.

frolix42 said:

The purpose of the fix is that it forces you to create vassals if you are above your demesne limit in order to avoid a levy penalty. You can hold all of the counties titles in your kingdom, and you will still apparently be able to imprison/banish baronies as long as you do so. But now this is viable only until you hold so many counties that the levy nerf makes it a necessity to give away a county to a vassal. Now you're creating counts who will become very angry with you when you imprison/banish. From this point forward, the more counties you take, the more your increasingly numerous counts will loathe you because your a tyrant.

These counts are going to form factions and try to overthrow you regularly if you continue to be above your demesne limit and imprison/banish baronies for money.

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Obviously it's an indirect fix to the fact that barony level titles can't revolt.

This is great. I remember we all got into a really long circular fight over Elective Succession back around Christmas, and I thought *that* was a long thread, but it didn't come close to this one.

Through its hilarious NK Mode Nerf Paradox has successfully identified the three people who ever gave a damn, and they're all right here.

Grell74 said:

Frolix42 Besides the personal insults, memes and telling other posters what it is they think and are saying, what point are you actually trying to argue? I have not seen anyone say that NK mode is fine and should stay as it is.

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Jeez. Now I feel like you're insulting me. :rofl: Where does it end? I have to disagree and say that I've seen quite a few people on this thread express their strong opinion that NK Mode should be left alone.

A-D and one or two others often repeat that they're being personally insulted because I've told them how silly I think their ideas are. Often they hurl actual personal insults at the same time, which is ironic.

Matt88 said:

Funnily enough you're living proof of how the human brain can only focus on a few things at a time.

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Ugh. I don't take it seriously because I'm an adult. I think that believing NK Mode is the accidental discovery of the most powerful form of government in history is deluding yourself that a game exploit reflects real life.

Grell74 said:

Admitedly A-D is setting him/herself as an easy target with the fairly silly "NK is legit historically" but ignoreing that, can you succintly state what it is you are positing?

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NK Mode shouldn't be in the game.
1. It's boring and repetitive, while at the same time the most optimal way to conquer the world. Players always seek out the most optimal way to play a game and that way should be fun.
2. It's extremely overpowered and makes people think that playing with vassals should be rebalanced to be as powerful as an unintended exploit.
3. NK Mode is a bug, glitch, exploit. Leaving it in the game because it is "optional" is the same as arguing that no bug, glitch or exploit that you can avoid should be removed from a game.
4. Fixes have been proposed on the forum on how to improve how NK Mode functions. Strategies which depend on using the NK Mode exploit are commonplace. These are pointless as the developers should concentrate on improving the game as it is designed to be played.
5. NK Mode allows players to bypass other design flaws in the game, such as Decadence or "having vassals (A-D's words)". Fixing NK Mode will focus the community on demanding fixes to these issues as well instead of just using a boring exploit to get around them.
6. I can't believe I even have to say this. CK2 is a history sim and NK Mode doesn't reflect historical reality in any way. Groogy has stated it is unintended and it's obviously not the accidental discovery of a hyper-efficient medieval government.
7. Your opinion on the priority Paradox addresses individual bug fixes and balance issues is only your opinion. I would've liked NK Mode mode to have been fixed earlier for the above 6 reasons.

#2, #5 and #7 is what I want Matt88 to take to heart. I respect (and disagree with) his opinions on how he wants the game to be improved but they are unrelated to a fix to the NK Mode bug. By justifying his proposal for a "buff to feudalism" by saying an unspecific NK Mode fix makes the game too hard, he is undermining his own argument (See #2).

Grell74 said:

That PIs proposed change is enough and we shouldnt question them or raise concerns?

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I think I've made it clear why I think a fix is needed and I hope it's enough. Unfortunately most opposition to the fix is based on completely speculative claims that it's going to make the game insanely difficult, that NK Mode is historical or that they would prefer other things be fixed first.

Matt88 said:

You're confusing "faster" on an in-game timescale with being easier.

That's like saying it's easier to kill off an entire dynasty by using a kill cheat to eliminate every living member. Rather than just invading the one territory they have left, and letting them die off in other people's courts naturally over time. Yeah the cheat way only took like one in-game day but the legit way was much less personal effort.

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It's reasonable to define easier as taking less amount of effort, but I think it's obvious that NK Mode allows you to accomplish many things with much less effort. Why I posted an AAR of a WC by 892 using NK Mode is to show that it would probably take at least a thousand hours of learning to play the game to accomplish this same task without these exploits. It actually seems to me to be virtually impossible to have a WC by 892 without NK Mode and exploits like it. A new player could follow maxirage's guide and replicate this in significantly less time and effort, although I think this would be a very sad thing to do and not how Paradox should want new players to experience the game.

frolix42 said:

NK Mode shouldn't be in the game.
1. - 6. [All good points I agree]

I think I've made it clear why I think a fix is needed and I hope it's enough. Unfortunately most opposition to the fix is based on completely speculative claims that it's going to make the game insanely difficult, that NK Mode is historical or that they would prefer other things be fixed first.

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Its naive to just hope that the propsed fix/nerf will be enough, especially when many posts have detailed why it wont be. Its also disingenuous of you to cherry pick only the most moronic of the arguments people have raised against the proposed NK fix/nerf and label them "most opposition". My own, and what I perceive as "most" opposition as has been stated many times in this thread that is that:

-Its a bandaid-fix that only partially addresses why NK shouldnt be in the game.
-It doesnt "fix" issues like banishment and assassination and current messed up levies.
-The current unappealing Feudalism mechanics arent actually been improved or made fun in any way.
-Based on Paradox's recent patch history it will likely be too much and have other unforseen consequences (on people who never used it anyway).

These are reasonable concerns which shouldnt just be brushed aside, and if we look back on this post after Paradox releases the patch I will be pleasantly suprised (but not hopeful) to find these were unfounded.

I added a seventh reason to my post before I read your response.

Grell74 said:

Its naive to just hope that the propsed fix/nerf will be enough, especially when many posts have detailed why it wont be.

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It's disingenuous to assert that anyone has proven that the fixes "won't be enough". What is enough exactly? These posts are overreacting to a vague promise and a general outline of how NK Mode will be discouraged. The concrete example given by Groogy of a NK Mode France only being able to raise 800 troops does seem to me to be enough to more realistically simulate NK Mode. A few people have stated that the fix as proposed won't stop them from using NK Mode but I hope the levy nerf will be enough to encourage them to try to play more often without NK Mode.

Grell74 said:

-Its a bandaid-fix that only partially addresses why NK shouldnt be in the game.

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I don't mind band-aids if they're helpful. Before this fix was announced, I proposed that being far above your demesne limit should cause +RR%. But this is better than nothing.

Grell74 said:

-It doesnt "fix" issues like banishment and assassination and current messed up levies.

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It's not a cure for AIDS or every problem that exists in CK2, but I'm a glass half full kind of guy. I've already detailed for you how it will curb the create/imprison/banishment exploit.

Grell74 said:

-The current unappealing Feudalism mechanics arent actually been improved or made fun in any way.

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I feel like #5 and #7 address this. The NK Mode fix doesn't seem to be one that would take large amounts of time and resources away from developing other aspects of the game.

Grell74 said:

-Based on Paradox's recent patch history it will likely be too much and have other unforseen consequences (on people who never used it anyway).

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This falls under #3. Every exploit is optional, but that doesn't justify leaving them in the game.
The game has been massively improved by balancing patches since 1.00 and I don't want Paradox to stop trying to balance the game, especially as they continue to add new features that change the game's balance. NK Mode is a clear example of an area that has needed focus for a long time.