Vanilla FtG

Mother of God...

Ober said:

Nope, WATK3 uses WATKABAOI, which also has some changes in Europe.

***

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Ok

I thought WATK-lite was the same as WATK3

Ober said:

...
1.) What's +/- ratio of your vanilla to mod games? Any reasons why vanilla is better than mods and vice versa?
2.) How do you feel about old vanilla EU2 map? Isn't it, well let's be honest, too crap, comparing to modded maps?
3.) Comparing vanilla to mods, how do you feel about quantity of events in both?
4.) What's more important: uber historical plausibility coming with thounsands of events (like AGCEEP), or just set of key events to keep everything going? (vanilla)
5.) Is there anything else you'd like to see added in vanilla?

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For me it´s approximately a ratio of 1 vanilla:1 PV:1AoT:1DoK:6 AGCEEP games.

Vanilla and the old vanilla EU2 map are better than any mod because:
It comes with the game - no need to download or mod anything. It´s tested for errors that might crash the game more thoroughly than any modded map. It doesn´t have Terra Incognita in the middle of provinces like some modded maps.

It´s exact enough for a casual gamer and it´s designed (e.g. by placing rivers at province borders) to actually fully use those gamefeatures like defending behind a river instead of placing too much value on realworld geography which would demand to have many provinces cut in parts by rivers and practically dilute the effects of some gamefeatures.
It´s generic enough to be used for a game of 400 years. Some mods try to use hyperaccurate maps that seem to include even tiny islands to be nearly sattelitelike - not only does that disturb my immersion in a game that starts in medieval times (where even the best maps were inaccurate) and ends before armies had real "Generalstabskarten" but worse is that it´s nonsense to have a satelitteaccurate map for use in 400 years where rivers changed their bed and whole coastlines with entire cities vanished.

It´s a map complete enough to play 1419 - 1820 while some mods like DoK are only for a limited timeframe valid (because there is no America on that map).

Oh - and it´s a map everyone knows and can refer to. Everyone may like a specific map from a mod better but that leads to a division of interest and activity to several mods of which some are already starving for people to participate.

For 5) there´s already the wishes for FtG thread
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?443615-A-Unified-List-of-Wishes-for-FtG
and the suggestions thread
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...-**-What-would-you-like-to-see-in-a-patch-1.3

Shouldn´t all the posts about new maps be moved to the modding subforum?

Ober said:

You realize I ask about any moddable changes you guys might want because maybe, just maybe I want to gather them all and implement to improve vanilla? Both threads are mostly suited for engine issues and wishes, not something we could mod in ourselves?

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If you are speaking about modding it yourself, instead of asking for suggestions to have the vanilla game changed, then that only is an argument to move the thread to the modding subforum.

Does anyone really care at this point?

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Sure. Threads should be named and organized to allow people to better find discussions they are interested in. Discussing a modding issue in the general forum and then moving the subject from how the vanilla map and events compare to those of mods, to suggesting changes to the vanilla map for mods makes it hard to find any specific part of the discussion in a thread that contains lots of different themes. Better have one approbiately named thread for each discussion.

And what we'd do, split every thread following more than one thought into x threads?

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As opposed to discussing everything in one thread? ;-)

Ober said:

1.) What's +/- ratio of your vanilla to mod games? Any reasons why vanilla is better than mods and vice versa?
2.) How do you feel about old vanilla EU2 map? Isn't it, well let's be honest, too crap, comparing to modded maps?
3.) Comparing vanilla to mods, how do you feel about quantity of events in both?
4.) What's more important: uber historical plausibility coming with thounsands of events (like AGCEEP), or just set of key events to keep everything going? (vanilla)
5.) Is there anything else you'd like to see added in vanilla?

If you're still playing FtG and have a minute to answer those questions. I would be one grateful person

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Here we go, then .

1) I always played with AGCEEP only. The great amount of events which add so much to the immersion are a must for me.

2) See below the quote, at the bottom of this post.

3) Well, I have played just a bit of vanilla in the early days so I can't really judge it, but I'd say it's very lacking when compared to AGCEEP (although the latter has been purposedly made with the goal of incorporating lots and lots of events).

4) The first one for me, no doubt (even because one can always set "AI decisions: random" if he wants more variety, while the opposite would be more difficult).

5) Hmm... yes, a more convenient way to send merchants to CoTs (e.g. in bunches of three: more or less what the player does on February each year but with the option to automate it somehow). Also, a notifier in the top part of the screen for expiring alliances (sometimes, forgetting about that can lead to catastrophical consequences...).


By the way, @ MichaelM: MANY THANKS for adding an «*» next to the name of the alliance leader!

ConjurerDragon said:

Vanilla and the old vanilla EU2 map are better than any mod because:

(...)

It´s generic enough to be used for a game of 400 years. Some mods try to use hyperaccurate maps that seem to include even tiny islands to be nearly sattelitelike - not only does that disturb my immersion in a game that starts in medieval times (where even the best maps were inaccurate) and ends before armies had real "Generalstabskarten" but worse is that it´s nonsense to have a satelitteaccurate map for use in 400 years where rivers changed their bed and whole coastlines with entire cities vanished.

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Plus, its undeniable inaccuracy makes IMHO for a greater sense of immersion.

For strange as it may sound, I like playing on a map which somehow resembles the ones which people from at least the XV-XVI centuries looked at. I even consider the colourless plains to be a consistent feature - as opposed to other games where I could never stand such a (lack of) colour.

Ober said:

You realize I ask about any moddable changes you guys might want because maybe, just maybe I want to gather them all and implement to improve vanilla? Both threads are mostly suited for engine issues and wishes, not something we could mod in ourselves?



Does anyone really care at this point? And what we'd do, split every thread following more than one thought into x threads?

***

I did some research with Therion, and it appears that somehow vanilla map is not suited for changes via Magellan I tried to edit WATK4 and everything works fine.

Surprising how easy Magellan is. Had I known earlier...

Anyway, I am still awaiting answer from our boss Michael, I hope he'll visit us here soon. And more of you, post here! We need more data!

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been through this many times...vanilla map with AGCEEP is not what people want............going to a map which doubles the provinces of Vanilla is not what people want............an initial 20% more provinces as per AGCEEP/FTG promise never occurred because map makers could not help themselves by going to the most extreme number of provinces that they could regardless if it worked or not.
I gave up with the "gunnar" AGCEEP map makers and settled on Therion PV........apart from mega squiggly lines and a slightly too many provinces I find this the best for me.

On mymap........far too many provinces.

The game needs to cater for the AI to have the ability to take the provinces needed to mintain some historical value. If too many provinces are in the game and the AI cannot achieve it goals, then the map is too big.......thats the simple answer to map modders/designers ..............human can live with any size map.
Vanilla is far too few in provinces.

Ober said:

After eventful conversation with Therion I decided to decomplie McSionnagh's YourMap presented in post #20 and try to add some provinces there.

While it looks absolutely ugly (please note that I'm not any artist and I wasn't trying my hardest anyway), good news are - it works!

(I made a bit better version in meantime to give you brief idea what kind of changes I wanna implement).

View attachment 99245

So technically we can, on top of McSionnagh's map with Mongolia and Sakhalin, make expanded vanilla map and work on top of that to make one, unified mod.

I can't help but agree with fact that, in the very end, uber historical mapmodes are being overwhelming. Therion might not be able to help us anytime soon (with exception of giving me lessons on how to make things pretty). I am yet to learn how to make things nice, but technical side of Magellan is covered!

Should I make a thread for New Vanilla Map then? Now it would make sense, but obviously I cannot guarantee you that it'll be any special or pretty - just an reasonable extension for basic map.

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yes . start a new thread

but, what the aim here?
1 - to replace vanilla map entirely
2 - to rpelace the vanilla map in FTG as the "promised" map will Never eventuate?
3 - start a new mod?

either way, a split of istria, apulia and lombardy is required.
a split in greece ( not Morea)
-A frisia required
- a zeeland split
- a prussia split

and some more which I cannot remember

Ober said:

1.) What's +/- ratio of your vanilla to mod games? Any reasons why vanilla is better than mods and vice versa?
2.) How do you feel about old vanilla EU2 map? Isn't it, well let's be honest, too crap, comparing to modded maps?
3.) Comparing vanilla to mods, how do you feel about quantity of events in both?
4.) What's more important: uber historical plausibility coming with thounsands of events (like AGCEEP), or just set of key events to keep everything going? (vanilla)
5.) Is there anything else you'd like to see added in vanilla?
6.) Since vanilla received many goodies in 1.3 so far (events, cultural changes, scenario changes, new lovely shieldsets, etc.), can we expect more stuff to come for vanilla version in next betapatches and eventually final 1.3 patch?
Cheers.

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1) A more stable and balanced
2) Implausible province and there are few
3) Equal importance
4) Just set of key events to keep everything but a large number of historical events is also good
5) More historical province
6) Thank you Michael the M