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Ober

Ober

Sir Anjin
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Sep 15, 2009
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I've been going through "Empires and Oddities" screenshot thread and it struck me that there are surprisingly many screenshots from 1.3 vanilla FtG. So well, a set of questions came to my mind, and I really want to know answers from all of you people, for general knowledge things ;)

1.) What's +/- ratio of your vanilla to mod games? Any reasons why vanilla is better than mods and vice versa?
2.) How do you feel about old vanilla EU2 map? Isn't it, well let's be honest, too crap, comparing to modded maps?
3.) Comparing vanilla to mods, how do you feel about quantity of events in both?
4.) What's more important: uber historical plausibility coming with thounsands of events (like AGCEEP), or just set of key events to keep everything going? (vanilla)
5.) Is there anything else you'd like to see added in vanilla?

And last one, special question for our Lord Patchmaker Michael the M:

6.) Since vanilla received many goodies in 1.3 so far (events, cultural changes, scenario changes, new lovely shieldsets, etc.), can we expect more stuff to come for vanilla version in next betapatches and eventually final 1.3 patch?

If you're still playing FtG and have a minute to answer those questions. I would be one grateful person ;)

Cheers.
 
1, On one hand, mods have more features than vanilla. On the other hand, most of the mods are WIP , to some degree , mods' features are incomplete(for example, many countries are not in revolt.txt in some mods ), so vanilla is more complete than mods.
2, Not carp, but have far few province compare to mods, especially in Germany which is my favourite part. However ,though not perfectly "historical" ,the shape of the provinces in vanilla map are more friendly to players..
3, Obviosly, mods have much more event than vanilla.
4, Personaly prefer "uber historical plausibility coming with thounsands of events"
5,
1,) more flag-change event.
2,) Add back the countries which are used to available in fomer version but cancel in ftg1.3
3,) is it possilbe to add new levels of unit sprite ? I don't mean that you need to provide new sprites but make the system can support more than 4 levels sprite for modders
6, -

I have to complain about the shieldset in ftg1.3. Yes, the new shield templates are lovely, but the problem is that many shields are so "similar". For example, though in different colours, Flanders' shield are very silimar to Palatinate's, they have the same lion in different colour on their shield in 1.3 glory set. Historically, the lion of Flanders' heraldry is very different from Palatinate's. Almost every lion, every eagle are the same in the 1.3 glory shield set.
 
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1. Roughly 45 percent vanilla, 45 percent WATKABAOI and 10 AGCEEP. Overall I think I prefer WATKABAOI, but I find it too unstable. There seems to be a period around the turn of the 16th/17th centuries when its particularly prone to crashing. In the last game I played, I was actually unable to get past that point and I ending up quitting. As for AGCEEP, I think that it might have just a few too many events that too often have little or no reflection of what is actually happening in the game.

2. The original map has its faults, but it has grown on me recently. It has a certain style. Meanwhile, I think that the WATKABAOI map is a bit over the top, with too many provinces crowded together, especially in Germany. Some sort of half-way compromise between vanilla and WATKABAOI would perhaps be best for me.

3 and 4.I like events, but as already mentioned, there is a limit to this, and AGCEEP is perhaps overdone. I'd prefer certain events to be dropped if the actual conditions in the game are too different.

5.The thing I'd like to see most of all is some sort of ability to trade provinces, although I realise that there are many pitfalls with this. At the very least, I think that the player should be able to give away provinces for free under certain circumstances in order to bolster buffer states, strengthen allies, etc. With the nerf on diplo-annex I don't think there is too much danger of excessive 'vassal-feeding' as seen in EU4!
 
@Zweihander

Which countries were removed from 1.3? I haven't played vanilla really, so I have no idea (well, that's exactly why this thread exists ;)).

And flags? I was looking for a bit, but didn't notice really anything outta shape. Would you mind making list of shields you consider wrong?

@Chicken Spadge

Well, I agree that vanilla map is quite charming, I just can't stand it for long enough to keep playing. Once I forced myself to play Fantasy Byzantium in AGCEEP and made it until 1750s?

Maybe I'm just too demanding...vanilla map with some fixes would not be bad indeed.

***

For me, map-wise:
WATKABAOI has too many crap - but that's exactly why this map exists. And since it has some addons in Europe as well, it ends up being chosen over WATK3.

MyMap would be the best map ever made for me, if some areas were not completely screwed. Siberia is main problem - I tried Russia once, reached Pacific and conquered Mongolia in 16th Century. Egyptian provinces are distorted so badly that I simply cannot let it pass. Some random PTIs in Asia, way too much provinces in Africa, somewhat screwed South America...it gets too complicated in the end.

Vanilla with some lifting could be acceptable. I remember one guy from Japan (had Kobe, Japan in his location afaik) made small fix for vanilla map - added provinces in Mongolia and Far East in general. All links are dead though :( I found his Skype via clicking here and there, but he never really answered me :(

WATK4 is not finished to begin with. And while it was about to be the best map ever, disjointed provinces here aren't working very well (HRE is one huge mess) and, yeah, it's not finished technically.

Therion doesn't have enough time to work on his map, and well, its future is uncertain.

***

Indeed, thou AGCEEP has many goodies, it's entirely not dynamic and you always get some annoying crap - like immortal Austria (unless you're willing to exterminate all Habsburg duchies and grab Bohemia/Hungary before them).

And as for 5.) I meant stuff that can be done via modding, not engine changes - that's something only Michael can do and we have suggestion thread for that.

It is about stuff that could possibly be done to improve vanilla experience and not make it say as overloaded as AGCEEP ;)
 
Chicken Spadge said:
Meanwhile, I think that the WATKABAOI map is a bit over the top, with too many provinces crowded together, especially in Germany. Some sort of half-way compromise between vanilla and WATKABAOI would perhaps be best for me.
Click to expand...
Totally agree


@Ober
I also think Mymap's map is a very good map. But what do you think about the map of A4k?It is neither watk's map nor Mymap's , right? I think that's my best map.
And have you ever see the map of Arabia Universalis 2.00? This map is not a whole-world map but a very, very cool one.

Ober said:
@Zweihander

Which countries were removed from 1.3? I haven't played vanilla really, so I have no idea (well, that's exactly why this thread exists ;)).

And flags? I was looking for a bit, but didn't notice really anything outta shape. Would you mind making list of shields you consider wrong?
Click to expand...

# Tags removed in 1.3...

# ALE, COI, CUM, DAM, LGD, MST, MYA, PAM
# FPR, FUC, LAN, PUR, ROY, YOR

About the shields, it just a complain, I don't really think I should bother Michael to do that, I can make shields and flags by myself, maybe I will re-start my shield thread later and I will accept requests from modders.
 
1.) What's +/- ratio of your vanilla to mod games? Any reasons why vanilla is better than mods and vice versa?
2.) How do you feel about old vanilla EU2 map? Isn't it, well let's be honest, too crap, comparing to modded maps?
3.) Comparing vanilla to mods, how do you feel about quantity of events in both?
4.) What's more important: uber historical plausibility coming with thounsands of events (like AGCEEP), or just set of key events to keep everything going? (vanilla)
5.) Is there anything else you'd like to see added in vanilla?
Click to expand...

1. Zweihander said it!
2. I don't like the vanilla map at all but it reminds me a lot for EU II (because it is) and for nostalgic reasons I close my eyes.
3. I like the events in mods like AGCEEP. The original game have too small selection.
4. Many events! We are not playing a timeline after all.
5. New arrows when the army and fleet are moving, more information about country technology when the mouse is over a capital (not only land and naval), switch on/off army in EVERY map mode. At all this are my 3 major wishes for this patch. :)
 
@zweihander

Map used by A4K is WATK4. Kasperus almost finished it and uploaded what he got for us last year afaik. I doubt he's still there (which is a shame really). Yeah, WATK4 has some great features, but most of all it's not finished (lack of borders in America for example) and well, it requires some fixes here and there. Therion attempted to do that, but we're yet to see when and if at all we'll get to play with this map.

As for tags, are any of them needed? Unless one'd be to mod War of the Roses to split England between York and Lancaster countries, those ain't needed. French Catholics were fairly useless, however, lack of Huguenots is most disturbing.

I thought that Michael removed something fairly important, like Germany or Italy. For example MyMap in EU2 technically removed Germany tag, as GER was used by Germiyan, small Turkish beylik. Either way, adding tags to game is really, really easy. Should be no problem if any tags are needed ;)

And for shields, yeah, I thought that simply if there are shields you consider wrong, maybe you could make good replacements? I have no idea about things like heraldry really, but if you see a way to improve it - why not? ;)

AU is one mad map, but it's really suited for Medieval scenarios only.

@Timur Khan

Again, I mean changes modders could apply to vanilla database, not to engine.

Silly people faces everywhere :D
 
Ober said:
@zweihander

Map used by A4K is WATK4. Kasperus almost finished it and uploaded what he got for us last year afaik. I doubt he's still there (which is a shame really). Yeah, WATK4 has some great features, but most of all it's not finished (lack of borders in America for example) and well, it requires some fixes here and there. Therion attempted to do that, but we're yet to see when and if at all we'll get to play with this map.
Click to expand...

What a pity ,hope that watk4 map can be finished one day.
What I want is a map that at least all of the "true" Electors (Mainz, Koeln, Trier, Bohemia, Pfalz, Sachsen, Brandenburg, Bayern, Brunswick-Lüneburg, Regensburg, Salzburg, Würzburg, Württemberg, Baden, Hesse-Kassel) can be place on the map.
 
Ober said:
1.) What's +/- ratio of your vanilla to mod games? Any reasons why vanilla is better than mods and vice versa?
2.) How do you feel about old vanilla EU2 map? Isn't it, well let's be honest, too crap, comparing to modded maps?
3.) Comparing vanilla to mods, how do you feel about quantity of events in both?
4.) What's more important: uber historical plausibility coming with thounsands of events (like AGCEEP), or just set of key events to keep everything going? (vanilla)
5.) Is there anything else you'd like to see added in vanilla?
Click to expand...



1) I don't play vanilla at all :p Just played a few games in it to see the 1.3 changes
Although adding a lot of events actually leads to a very different outcome, I still see AGCEEP as an (greatly) improved vanilla, that even includes "special" paths for many nations.

2)Somehow... I like the map... All the others seem too ambitious, and while having plenty of provs is nice, I'd take an improved vanilla map any day.

3)Vanilla has to few, AGCEEP can never have to many, and I feel like all the other mods should also have more.

4) Events all the way!

5)Uh... Nothing that doesn't involve events.
 
@Zweihander

What I want is a map that at least all of the "true" Electors (Mainz, Koeln, Trier, Bohemia, Pfalz, Sachsen, Brandenburg, Bayern, Brunswick-Lüneburg, Regensburg, Salzburg, Würzburg, Württemberg, Baden, Hesse-Kassel) can be place on the map.
Click to expand...


In vanilla map Michael replaced Palatinate with Trier, I just noticed it as I started playing France for lulz. Regensburg could be technically placed in Ansbach, but it was only a local (arch?)bishopric, right?

Salzburg is one easy to add actually. And I guess that rest is actually in vanilla.

@Nein

Somehow... I like the map... All the others seem too ambitious, and while having plenty of provs is nice, I'd take an improved vanilla map any day.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I started playing France to see more or less how new vanilla works. It already looks tempting - colorscales are somewhat neat and new shields are most appealing. I only played until 1470 (will continue now, I just want to aimlessly blob like in good ol' times), but somehow this game keeps me interested. I tried a few PV games but it wasn't it after all.

The more I play that old, ugly map, the more I get into it...that's really weird feeling.
 
Ober said:
@Zweihander




In vanilla map Michael replaced Palatinate with Trier, I just noticed it as I started playing France for lulz. Regensburg could be technically placed in Ansbach, but it was only a local (arch?)bishopric, right?

Salzburg is one easy to add actually. And I guess that rest is actually in vanilla.
Click to expand...

You remind me of a "bug" in vanilla 1.3.
Pfalz was replaced by Trier in the two early scenarios(1419,1492) but still exist in the later scenarios. And there is not any event to make Pfalz appear in the game.
So, if you start the game in the two early scenarios, under normal circumstances(if Pflaz don't appear by revolt or vassal-releasing), Pfalz would be never appear in the whole game.
However, many events in the later game are link to Pfalz such as events in the 30 years wars , that means those events can't happen or haven't any effect.


P.S. suggestion: Perhaps Brunswick(BRU) in vallina1.3 is better to be re-named as Brunswick-Lüneburg.
 
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IMO the best existing map, all things considered, is WATK 3. Watkabaoi is anachronistic which is not surprising given that it was developed specifically for the AoI mod. Also, some of the extra provinces it adds in Europe are quite small (Massa, Lauenberg, etc.) and odd given that there were provinces far more historically important that could have been added instead (e.g. Lille, Novara).

I've come to realise that any radical changes or projects are at this stage totally unrealistic given such a meagre interest and participation. Apart from the map itself, one need also acknowledge that the province database and events conversion from AGCEEP would take ages.

Therion attempted to do that, but we're yet to see when and if at all we'll get to play with this map.
Click to expand...
The map itself is done. I uploaded the tbl map files but there was evidently no interest because no one commented or downloaded them. What remains to be done as such are the province borders and the province database but I kinda lost interest and do not have much time to spare anyway.
 
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@Therion
I don't know much about maps, could you tell me which mod use watk3?
I have seen your download link in one thread, but when I go to download it, the link is already dead.
 
I don't think any working mods use WATK 3 and the website it was hosted on (eu2ftg.com) is dead. Somewhere in my hard drives I have a modification of the WATK 3 map with more provinces in Europe (but unlike Watkabaoi still retaining PTI in Africa and elsewhere).

I have seen your download link in one thread, but when I go to download it, the link is already dead.
Click to expand...
Yes, I eventually removed it due to lack of interest.
 
Then whatchu waiting for, both Therion and Garbon, upload it somewhere if you are able to. Alternatively I can upload them to my Mega and Dropbox later, so they'll never die.

Although since we're talking about vanilla, concept of expanding vanilla map becomes more and more appealing. But it seems I have to install EU2 and get old files from there to use it in Magellan, rite?

I doubt anyone will ever make an update for AGCEEP, so we could for once decide what future of historical moddage will be like. I'm fairly certain that we'll keep updating A4K with Basi until reptillian Martians will come to take us down.

To be absolutely honest I simply wanted to see how many people play vanilla and on top of that make small mod, only with most important AGCEEP events and database, based on much more dynamic key events in FtG timeframe (so there's room for some alternatives, I guess game would get closer to EU4 this way, but retain most of historical sense).
 
Therion said:
I don't think any working mods use WATK 3 and the website it was hosted on (eu2ftg.com) is dead. Somewhere in my hard drives I have a modification of the WATK 3 map with more provinces in Europe (but unlike Watkabaoi still retaining PTI in Africa and elsewhere).


Yes, I eventually removed it due to lack of interest.
Click to expand...

I thought PV uses the old WATK3 with some changes....correct me if I am wrong
 
Nope, WATK3 uses WATKABAOI, which also has some changes in Europe.

***

Speaking of maps, I was cruising with Google Translator via Japanese Paradox games sites, as I do from time to time, and found massive Paradox mods repository.

I browsed it for a while and on tenth page or so found working download of McSionnaigh's Map Project, which is vanilla with more provinces in Asia and some namechanges in Europe (Moscow is fully moved to Tula for example).

In McSionnaigh's profile on Paradox I found his Skype, tried to contact him twice - first time a few months ago and second yesterday - but no replies yet. Dunno, they simply might dislike talking in English, that's most likely the case.

Anyway I downloaded the map and made quick dummy entries to cover IDs added

8qA4fV4.png


NovZL5C.png

Maybe that could be used in AGCEEP? Mongolia might finally be moved to its real place, also all province changes needed for AGCEEP (as stated in original thread) are in place.

I also tried using Magellan, but I keep having silly issues. I guess if Therion will be up today I'll have to ask him for some more help.

Well, that's more or less my story for you for today.

***

I'll upload WATK Lite to my Mega shortly. And make small mods repository this way.
 
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