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ZechsMerquise73

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Sep 3, 2009
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Catholics and most of Christendom are missing the following features:


Baptism
Suggested model:
This is a huge oversight. Baptism might have been a simple thing, but it was also a prominent occasion in one's life. The player has the decision to baptise their child, which costs a sum of gold in return for prestige and their child's acceptance into Catholicism. Converts would be given the same opportunity. For a person raised as a Catholic who wasn't baptized in infancy, the goal becomes much harder. They must have a good relationship with a bishop or chaplain and pay a significantly higher sum. Unbaptised characters receive a relations hit, and rulers who are unbaptised are given a significantly higher malice.

Mass of Christian Burial

Sainthood
Comment:
I feel like PI has held back on this one, considering that some might get offended. I think we could probably all agree that no one really cares.

Squires

Knighthood

Reliquaries and Distinct Relics
Comment/Suggestion:
Some rulers of the period didn't just have one relic, as the game now portrays, but they would have whole museum full of family and church fetishes. I'd really love it if these items had a distinct meaning, and in-game historical value. If I have a particularly good queen, perhaps her heart should be preserved in a fancy jar. Or if Robert, my 'Jesus gives martial advice' marshal dies in battle, we get the Hand of Robert or something. These could be similar to 'historical battle markers' in games like RTW or Civ 5, but with a distinct Crusader Kings spin.

Relics could be looted from other rulers, and your collection would grow over time. These items could be observed individually within a building, similar to the patrician family property. Reformed pagans could probably also use this, and perhaps their collections wouldn't be mutually exclusive. How cool would it be to reform the Avar Khanate and find the Sword of Mars?


Can anyone else think of pretty obvious things which are missing from Christendom's portrayal?
 
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Not that big of a fan of your other ideas, as I think Christianity has enough unique stuff for now. I do agree with the baptism proposal though. Hadn't really thought about it, but baptism does seem like a good unique event that people could have once in a lifetime like a Tournament.
 
You know, the idea of burial in general for all religions seems really cool. It would nice to have your heir give a good send off to the ruler you just conquered half the world with. Or maybe a way to give one final rude gesture to the fellow who died in that mysterious snake attack/manure explosion combo.
 
Not that big of a fan of your other ideas, as I think Christianity has enough unique stuff for now. I do agree with the baptism proposal though. Hadn't really thought about it, but baptism does seem like a good unique event that people could have once in a lifetime like a Tournament.

I agree.

Catholicism is easily the most fleshed out religion already.

I'd rather that they give more attention to Orthodox and, Miaphysite instead. Similarly, Shia, West African, Slavic, Romuva, and Suomenousko are underdeveloped. And making the heresies more interesting would be good too.

Um, regarding the OP, maybe Christians, Jews, and Muslims could get a Circumcision event (with a very remote chance of accidentally getting Castrated instead!)
 
Relics are already in, actually. One of my characters was given custody of a holy relic someone else felt unable to guard appropriately. Later, my character fell ill and there was an event relating to that relic.

Also, you can have an event to accept or ban traders claiming to be selling real relics. For disallowing them you receive an opinion bonus with church vassals but take a monetary penalty.
 
I agree.

Catholicism is easily the most fleshed out religion already.

I'd rather that they give more attention to Orthodox and, Miaphysite instead. Similarly, Shia, West African, Slavic, Romuva, and Suomenousko are underdeveloped. And making the heresies more interesting would be good too.

Um, regarding the OP, maybe Christians, Jews, and Muslims could get a Circumcision event (with a very remote chance of accidentally getting Castrated instead!)
Why would Christians get circumcision event? I thought that was only a Jew thing? I know it is popular nowadays in America, but not for religious reasons.
 
Why would Christians get circumcision event? I thought that was only a Jew thing? I know it is popular nowadays in America, but not for religious reasons.
Yes, I believe it wasn't done as much until we discovered how diseases worked.
 
Relics are already in, actually. One of my characters was given custody of a holy relic someone else felt unable to guard appropriately. Later, my character fell ill and there was an event relating to that relic.

Also, you can have an event to accept or ban traders claiming to be selling real relics. For disallowing them you receive an opinion bonus with church vassals but take a monetary penalty.
As I said, what I want is reliquaries and distinct relics. That is, not just one with this repetitive 'bless the crops' event, with no actual impact on the game, no name or history. But something that grounds your family and world history. Perhaps relics could even describe how they were created in-game.

For example:

Relic; Foot of George the Bold
In 1082, George the Bold of Castille scarified his life on the field of battle. After his death, local monks of [x bishopric] took his foot in honor of his holy deeds in life.

And you keep this in a place with other relics to improve your prestige and piety. But mostly to add flavor and background. Really, every religion could use this system to some extent. For some, maybe not relics, but historical items. Jews could keep scrolls they find, or historical implements. Some Muslims do keep relics, as converse to their beliefs as that may seem.

Maybe there could be opposites, like the Bogomils keeping relics of cruel, wrothful, immoral priests, etc. Cults, etc, doing stuff in opposition of the church. >.< Maybe that could get too creepy.

Not that big of a fan of your other ideas, as I think Christianity has enough unique stuff for now.
I don't see the problem with fleshing out the game more. Catholics are perhaps the most played, general focus of the game. Might as well finish them while we're this close, I feel. I honestly think the stuff they're missing keeps Catholics from being as fun as the Norse or Mercantile Republics. Some of these features could be applied to 'heretics' as well. Before introducing a lot of new stuff to one faction, however, I feel the interface might need a face lift.
 
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It's not about fleshing out the game more. I won't argue that Christianity could use ever more stuff, like baptisms or more support for heresies other than Cathar and Fraticelli, but I just think that in terms of balance between the three big groups that one can play as (Muslims, Christians, and pagans/misc), right now thing are fairly evenly balanced, with some subgroups getting shafted, and others getting large attention within each of the three. Really, I just think tha the focus on fleshing out the game shouldn't be on mere mechanics, which are likely as balanced as they can be for the time being, but rather on improving the experience as a whole. As you said, the interface could probably use a facelift, and I'd say more character-oriented stuff should be in order for the future.
 
Everything I suggested is character focused stuff, though. I doubt Saint Hood, local Knights (which work for islam too), Batpism, or Reliquaries would effect game balance (though I don't think there is such a thing in CK2. The player makes the balance). Its mostly fluff, but I think, pretty cool fluff. The game doesn't really offer a diverse experience within any particular group, as far as mechanics, decisions, or events go. Unique situations usually arise out of how the game board is established, and character traits, and quasi-relationships.

I think all of these things I mentioned would alter character relations. Maybe you're a knight of an opposing house or kingdom. Perhaps your kidnapping this son in war prevented his baptism. Maybe you stole this person's father's relic. It all adds to character relation.
 
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Why would Christians get circumcision event? I thought that was only a Jew thing? I know it is popular nowadays in America, but not for religious reasons.

Yeah it was only a Jew and Muslim thing. Christians didn't practice it.
 
Yeah it was only a Jew and Muslim thing. Christians didn't practice it.

It is customary for many of the Oriental Orthodox churches / Miaphysite in CK2 (who are CHRISTIAN) to practice it.

And the Orthodox Catholic church (who are CHRISTIAN) celebrates the circumcision of Christ as one of its major Great Feast Days.
 
Don't see why people are saying no based on current Catholic meatiness.

Just because something is already fleshed out doesn't mean we shouldn't flesh it out more./

Because of opportunity cost. Paradox has limited resources.

If it spends more time further fleshing out Catholicism, then it's time that it could otherwise spend fleshing out the religions which are far weaker and flimsier (Orthodox, Miaphysite, West Africa, Shia, etc.)
 
Circumcision is not mandatory for Christian since the council of Jerusalem (50 AD). Also, as Holy Paul wrote, Christian are only interested in spiritual purity and not physical one.

"25. Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[a] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. Romans 2:25-28

I think Baptism is a more better idea, for it was very important to create powerful ties between families during those times, as a marriage does in game. The ally of the baptized was considered one of his father/mother (a spiritual one) and they were like for marriage incompatibilities. So in game, it could be a mean to create alliances or, at least, a nice opinion bonus. In opposite, excommunication would transform the bonus into a malus one.
 
Because of opportunity cost. Paradox has limited resources.

If it spends more time further fleshing out Catholicism, then it's time that it could otherwise spend fleshing out the religions which are far weaker and flimsier (Orthodox, Miaphysite, West Africa, Shia, etc.)

I agree: Christians have already a lot. Let Paradox focus on other religions!
 
I think Baptism is a more better idea, for it was very important to create powerful ties between families during those times, as a marriage does in game. The ally of the baptized was considered one of his father/mother (a spiritual one) and they were like for marriage incompatibilities. So in game, it could be a mean to create alliances or, at least, a nice opinion bonus. In opposite, excommunication would transform the bonus into a malus one.
Great ideas there. I'm not sure about how the whole thing worked, but I figure you should at least get a little opinion buff with the priest who sprinkled you.
 
Reading all those ideas about Relics... I just imagined the game with a crowd of 'relic' events for religions for whom it makes sense...and then make Iconoclasts hunt them down and gain piety for destroying other people's relics...