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Thread: A collection of requested succession types

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    A collection of requested succession types

    EDIT:
    Here is the compiled list of suggestions, with easy to implement stuff that are highly desirable at the top, more complicated stuff further down, and the much more fantastic or unusual stuff at the bottom.

    Simple:
    -No succession: The title is distroyed on the ruler's dealth. For special titles only to simplify some of the code (unless this is already in the game).
    -Nomination succession: Elective, but the ruler gets the only vote. You can choose any dynasty member in your realm, or a member of your councel. Vassals dislike this succession type, could potentially be available in the base game under max crown authority.
    -Gavelkind nomination succession: The ruler may choose which of their heirs is the primary heir.
    -Alternative gender systems for republics: The ability to have both gender equal republics, or female only ones. With family dues and trading posts being adjusted as appropriate.

    Complex:
    -Close family seniority succession: Closer to how seniority actually worked in real life. The only candidates are those who're either siblings or children of previous holders of the title. The eldest is the heir. Very popular with siblings, aunts, and uncles. Disliked evenly by your children. I actually think this should replace the current seniority in the base game with the other one being a moddable succession law.
    -Meritocratic succession (was succession by statistic): Whoever holds the highest of a certain statistic (diplomacy, martial, ect) in the realm/court succeeds the title. Which statistic it is is specified in the law itself.
    -Semi-agnatic (or pragmatic) succession: As agnatic-cognatic primogeniture or gavelkind, except that brothers are before daughters. Semi-Enatic as well.
    -Power succession: The most powerful vassal inherits, with potential succession wars between several powerful vassals.
    -Groomed succession: The previous holder's wards are eligible from oldest to youngest.
    -Co-ruler succession: The holder can appoint a "co-ruler" regent at any point. The regent succeeds. If no regent's been appointed, the strongest councilor succeeds.
    -Religious elective succession: Like feudal elective, but all the realm's religious rulers have a vote.
    -Plutocratic elective succession: Like feudal elective, but all the realm's burghers have a vote.
    -Egyptian gender succession: If male, your heir is female. If female, your heir is male.
    -Appointed elector elective succession: As elective, except that only certain members of the realm get to vote. This privilege may be revoked or fought over by the vassals and liege. Similar to the HRE in EU4.

    Fantastic:
    -Officio Titles: The Title belongs the the holder of another office. Eg: The Barony of Teano is always held by the Chancellor of Isteria.
    -Rotational succession: This should probably be a variation on either seniority or elective. The important part is that when you take the title, you must give up all titles you had before assuming this one (and anything else the old holder had) to your own heir. You are disqualified from inheriting any other titles while you hold one with this succession type, unless you gain it from a vassal who has no valid heirs. Will be for special situations, and not for the base game.
    -Gavelsenority succession: Upon succession, your lands are divided up among the three next oldest family members, possibly only to the landless members of the family.
    -Gavellective succession: Elective, but splits titles among the top three according to gavelkind rules.
    -Mystic Succession: A random child of six years old or less inherits the title, capital holding, and capital duchy. Everything else gets inherited by seniority.
    -Random Succession: Not a succession law per se, but a modifier that can be used with any succession. Causes you to continue play as a random landed dynasty member instead of always as your main heir.
    -Contested Succession: You kill the king, you become the king
    -Early Islamic elective: See further down.






    //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
    ORIGINAL POST:

    Since Paradox has said that we will not have fully moddible succession types for a number of reasons, I thought it might be best to put all the succession law types we'd like to see in the game that are at least available for modders. I'll start by listing a few:

    -Nomination succession: Elective, but the ruler gets the only vote. You can choose any dynasty member in your realm, or a member of your councel. Vassals dislike this succession type, could potentially be available in the base game under max crown authority.
    -Close family seniority: Closer to how seniority actually worked in real life. The only candidates are those who're either siblings or children of previous holders of the title. The eldest is the heir. Very popular with siblings, aunts, and uncles. Disliked evenly by your children. I actually think this should replace the current seniority in the base game with the other one being a moddable succession law.
    -No succession: The title is distroyed on the ruler's dealth. For special titles only to simplify some of the code (unless this is already in the game).
    -Rotational succession: This should probably be a variation on either seniority or elective. The important part is that when you take the title, you must give up all titles you had before assuming this one (and anything else the old holder had) to your own heir. You are disqualified from inheriting any other titles while you hold one with this succession type, unless you gain it from a vassal who has no valid heirs. Will be for special situations, and not for the base game.
    -Meritocratic succession (was succession by statistic): Whoever holds the highest of a certain statistic (diplomacy, martial, ect) in the realm/court succeeds the title. Which statistic it is is specified in the law itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Sin View Post
    What we need is a semi-agnatic succession (or pragmatic) system. This would be the one really applicable to France, Germany, Poland, Bohemia and Hungary at the very least. This succession system means that succession is normally agnatic, except if the family is dying out completely in the male line, in which case women can inherit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Sin View Post
    Rotation would be crazy to programme... what about an approximation to it, that could look like gavelkind, only for seniority? Upon succession, your land is divided up amongst the three next oldest family members.
    Quote Originally Posted by balmung60 View Post
    I'd like a preferential option for Gavelkind (same as current except you get to chose your primary heir, or even order your children).
    Quote Originally Posted by Kljunas View Post
    It [Meritocratic succession] would be better if it was a variant of the Muslim "open" succession but not limited to the ruler's sons. i.e. the most powerful vassal inherits, with potential succession wars between several powerful vassals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hethran View Post
    One major one: Different gender laws for Republics.

    Matrician Elective (or however you would describe enatic republics) would be really useful in a Wheel of Time mod to represent the Domani merchant class.

    And gender-equal Elective should be available for Cathar Republics in the base game.
    Quote Originally Posted by BonSequitur View Post
    Mystic Succession - A random child of six years old or less inherits the title, capital holding, and capital duchy. Everything else gets inherited by seniority. The child is chosen from children in the realm that are six or less, biased towards ones without negative traits and with the quick or genius traits. If no child is available, a lowborn one gets generated. This is very vaguely similar to how the Dalai Lama is picked and would make for a fun challenge where you can be a vassal to a title you can never usurp.
    Quote Originally Posted by nyah View Post
    I'd like to see pre-succession wars where the prospective heirs jockey for position. It could work with elective whereby a candidate could force other vassals to support him in the election, or with a gavelkind type succession where the sons of the king would fight over who gets what.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChildeR View Post
    Random. Not a succession law per se, but a modifier that can be used with any succession. Causes you to continue play as a random landed dynasty member instead of always as your main heir.

    "Gavellective". Elective, but splits titles among the top three according to gavelkind rules.

    Semi-agnatic. Daughters come after brothers. Semi-enatic, similarly.

    Groomed. The previous holder's wards are eligible from oldest to youngest.

    Coruler. The holder can appoint a "coruler" regent at any point. The regent succeeds. If no regent's been appointed, the strongest councilor succeeds.

    Religious elective. Like feudal elective, but all the realm's religious rulers have a vote.

    Plutocratic elective. Like feudal elective, but all the realm's burghers have a vote.
    Quote Originally Posted by drakeheath View Post
    I'd also like a succession along the lines of "you kill the king, you become the king" if only for mods.
    Maybe add a dueling system where you can challenge people to combat/joust/etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amalamanhado View Post
    I'd like to see the Early Islamic elective used by the Rashidun Caliphate (The First Four Caliphs) I know it was not used in the game time frame but I think it could be used by someone who wants to restore the "United Caliphate".

    In it a small elective council (about 10), composed by characters in the realm with highest Total Learning, Highest Learning Education and Traits like Zealous, Scholar, Hafiz and Faqih would choose the leader who is viewed as the most pious.

    The would be Caliphs would be chosen according to the good traits they had (the seven virtues and also Honest, Brave, Zealous, Just, Hafiz, Faqih, Holy Warrior, Mujahid, Scholar, Genius, Quick and High Learning (3-4)) with some traits disqualifying them (Slothful, Proud, Greedy, Deceitful, Cynical, Craven, Arbitrary, Cruel, Hedonist, Impaler, Mystic, Imbecile, Incapable, Homosexual, Kinslayer, Drunkard, Lunatic and Possessed) and others adding a penalty to their score (Slow, Inbred, Gluttonous, Lustful, Envious, Wroth, Paranoid, Detached Priest and Indulgent Wastrel).
    Kailvin
    Egyptian succession. Primo with a twist. If your a man. Your eldest daughter inherits. If your a woman. Your eldest son. (As seen in EU:Rome)
    Diestormlie
    ex Officio Titles: The Title belongs the the older of another office.
    Eg: The Barony of Teano is always held by the Chancellor of Isteria.
    coyote_gospel
    Maybe a version of Elective Sucession with fixed Elector seats, to make it a bit more historically accurate.
    Not necessarily so that no one but those few get to vote, but maybe have their votes count double or let them have a sort of preliminary Election to pick Candidates on who the rest of the realm could then vote.
    They wouldn't have to be static either. A few titles (some duchies, few counties, maybe a kingdom) are designated Electors in the beginning, but the top liege and fellow vassals could plot to have that Privilege revoked, granted to someone else or acquire it for themselves.
    Being Elector comes with a lot of Prestige and County-level Electors are guaranteed Independence from their de jure Dukes without Opinion Penalties.
    You could add a whole level of Intrigue trying to curry favour with an Elector so that they vote the way you choose and so on.

  2. #2
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    Nomination would be glorious, wouldn't have to revoke every title in the kingdom to handpick a terrible heir for the fun of it
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  3. #3
    Rota would be murder to code into game. Close Seniority on the other hand, makes perfect sense historically.
    Last edited by Mackus; 15-12-2013 at 00:10.

  4. #4
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    Without Rota, Kievan 'Rus is better as a kingdom-tier Kiev ruling over the Rurikovich super dukes with max decentralisation. Everyone being huge and having claims on each other will destabilise it enough.
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  5. #5
    Nomination would be glorious, but I definitely believe it should require high, or possibly absolute CA given how much control a monarchy would need to accomplish this.

  6. #6
    I think that the term for "Succession by Statistic" would be "Meritocratic".

    I'd like a preferential option for Gavelkind (same as current except you get to chose your primary heir, or even order your children).

  7. #7
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    What we need is a semi-agnatic succession (or pragmatic) system. This would be the one really applicable to France, Germany, Poland, Bohemia and Hungary at the very least. This succession system means that succession is normally agnatic, except if the family is dying out completely in the male line, in which case women can inherit.

    Rotation would be crazy to programme... what about an approximation to it, that could look like gavelkind, only for seniority? Upon succession, your land is divided up amongst the three next oldest family members.

  8. #8
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    Well, if we exclude rotation, I love it !
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkMaster View Post
    Since Paradox has said that we will not have fully moddible succession types for a number of reasons, I thought it might be best to put all the succession law types we'd like to see in the game that are at least available for modders. I'll start by listing a few:

    -Nomination succession: Elective, but the ruler gets the only vote. You can choose any dynasty member in your realm, or a member of your councel. Vassals dislike this succession type, could potentially be available in the base game under max crown authority.
    I'm not sure about the max authority there. As in it makes sense to require ACA to put the king's laws and decisions above the succession customs of the realm, but on the other hand nomination is an old device preceding the renaissance-ish creeping absolutism that ACA probably represents.

    -Close family seniority: Closer to how seniority actually worked in real life.
    Yeah.

    The only candidates are those who're either siblings or children of previous holders of the title.
    Not bad. Looks a little bit close to tanistry. Speaking of which, so does nomination. Perhaps a wider use of tanistry and some modifications to it could be the answer.

    The eldest is the heir. Very popular with siblings, aunts, and uncles. Disliked evenly by your children. I actually think this should replace the current seniority in the base game with the other one being a moddable succession law.
    If they implement cadet lines, it will probably be easy to keep the number of family members with the same surname low, preventing inheritance by seniority of someone whose ancestors branched off centuries ago over the children and siblings of recent rulers.

    -No succession: The title is distroyed on the ruler's dealth. For special titles only to simplify some of the code (unless this is already in the game).
    Life peerages, eh?

    -Rotational succession: This should probably be a variation on either seniority or elective. The important part is that when you take the title, you must give up all titles you had before assuming this one (and anything else the old holder had) to your own heir. You are disqualified from inheriting any other titles while you hold one with this succession type, unless you gain it from a vassal who has no valid heirs. Will be for special situations, and not for the base game.
    Sounds like mediaeval Russians. Poland had seniority for the core royal demesne, while the titles below were all hereditary (though presumably the individual rulers would have had the ability to change succession to seniority in their own domains).

    -Succession by statistic: Whoever holds the highest of a certain statistic (diplomacy, martial, ect) in the realm/court succeeds the title. Which statistic it is is specified in the law itself.
    Too technical, too meta, IMHO. Plus, I think Elective features the 'impressed me with X' factor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewbieOne View Post
    Too technical, too meta, IMHO. Plus, I think Elective features the 'impressed me with X' factor.
    At the first glance I thought that the 'Statistic succ' is not necessary too but then I realised that it could be used, and is meant as, 'the most powerful orc is now the clan leader', i.e. a way to represent tribes.
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  11. #11
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    (reworked) Gavelkind: You can choose which of your sons becomes your primary heir and which title is given to whom.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athalcor View Post
    At the first glance I thought that the 'Statistic succ' is not necessary too but then I realised that it could be used, and is meant as, 'the most powerful orc is now the clan leader', i.e. a way to represent tribes.
    It would be better if it was a variant of the Muslim "open" succession but not limited to the ruler's sons. i.e. the most powerful vassal inherits, with potential succession wars between several powerful vassals.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kljunas View Post
    It would be better if it was a variant of the Muslim "open" succession but not limited to the ruler's sons. i.e. the most powerful vassal inherits, with potential succession wars between several powerful vassals.
    Well yes, that would be pbly the best - NewbieOne is right, the stat succ as set in the OP is too technical.

    TBH, even if only the 'nominal' and 'no' succ made it to the game, I would still be excited as hell.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkMaster View Post
    -Nomination succession: Elective, but the ruler gets the only vote. You can choose any dynasty member in your realm, or a member of your councel. Vassals dislike this succession type, could potentially be available in the base game under max crown authority.
    That's exactly what I thought when I passed the Absolute Monarchy crown law. It makes a lot of sense to have it.

  15. #15
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    Byzantine succession, which was actually quite complex.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Azarias59 View Post
    Byzantine succession, which was actually quite complex.
    How did it work exactly? I've never really looked into it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarias59 View Post
    Byzantine succession, which was actually quite complex.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carmilla View Post
    How did it work exactly? I've never really looked into it....
    The better question is, what exactly do you want the law to do.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkMaster View Post
    -Nomination succession: Elective, but the ruler gets the only vote. You can choose any dynasty member in your realm, or a member of your councel. Vassals dislike this succession type, could potentially be available in the base game under max crown authority.
    Far too OP unless you make a system that is more unforgiving than the one for Unreformed Norse... or have Absolute Crown Authority financially and administratively cripple your Realm (which it really should because Feudalism existed and lasted so long for a damn good reason)

    -Close family seniority: Closer to how seniority actually worked in real life. The only candidates are those who're either siblings or children of previous holders of the title. The eldest is the heir. Very popular with siblings, aunts, and uncles. Disliked evenly by your children. I actually think this should replace the current seniority in the base game with the other one being a moddable succession law.
    Should not be its own succession law. If PI adds the "Cadet Branches" system everyone wants, Senioritywill become like this.

    -No succession: The title is distroyed on the ruler's dealth. For special titles only to simplify some of the code (unless this is already in the game).
    Nobody would want that, including the in-game characters.

    -Rotational succession: This should probably be a variation on either seniority or elective. The important part is that when you take the title, you must give up all titles you had before assuming this one (and anything else the old holder had) to your own heir. You are disqualified from inheriting any other titles while you hold one with this succession type, unless you gain it from a vassal who has no valid heirs. Will be for special situations, and not for the base game.
    Rotational Succession should really be implemented in some form.

    -Succession by statistic: Whoever holds the highest of a certain statistic (diplomacy, martial, ect) in the realm/court succeeds the title. Which statistic it is is specified in the law itself.
    Can't imagine such a law passed in real life.

  19. #19
    One major one: Different gender laws for Republics.

    Matrician Elective (or however you would describe enatic republics) would be really useful in a Wheel of Time mod to represent the Domani merchant class.

    And gender-equal Elective should be available for Cathar Republics in the base game.

  20. #20
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    Nomination is already in the game for patricians. If you want to mod it in, just use any system you want as the default and make it so that the target can use a designated heir titular title.
    I think the devs said once that rota is too complex, but now that they are doing new expansions they may become willing to add it.
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