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Byzantium: Maintaining a big, healthy, well-functioning blob

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RedRooster81 said:
So my question is this: what strategies can I employ from the beginning of the game to accomplish this goal? Giving duchies to my dynasty members seems problematic over the long term because of the very real possibility of succession crises.
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One thing I wanted to add: having your family members as your dukes is a plus. They mainly are going to cause you problems is if they have a claim to your primary title. If they don't have any claims and are in your de jure territory they will be very loyal to you. I typically work on keeping a group of unlanded family members in court. As long as your court size is not too big (I think less than 40? I try to keep it below 30 if possible), they will continue having children. After a generation or so from your original king, these members of your dynasty should have no claims on any of your titles, and be perfect for making into your dukes. Sometimes I use these courtiers up and end up giving a title or two to a favored son, but as long as you keep the number of troublemakers not so large you should be fine. Eventually their claims will die out. Also to keep your court size down, matrilineally marry away any male courtier layabouts who are serving no purpose, and similarly marry away any of the extraneous female courtiers that pop up.
 
The single most important lesson I learned for managing Byzantium is to keep 3k gold on hand to bribe your way out of succession crisis. The day your king dies pause and start with bribing the dukes who already like you. The ones who hate you are a lost cause so the objective is to keep the +20-30 guys from joining the factions. Make the revolt easy to win and enjoy your crushed major revolt bonus.
 
cholliman said:
One thing I wanted to add: having your family members as your dukes is a plus. They mainly are going to cause you problems is if they have a claim to your primary title. If they don't have any claims and are in your de jure territory they will be very loyal to you. I typically work on keeping a group of unlanded family members in court. As long as your court size is not too big (I think less than 40? I try to keep it below 30 if possible), they will continue having children. After a generation or so from your original king, these members of your dynasty should have no claims on any of your titles, and be perfect for making into your dukes. Sometimes I use these courtiers up and end up giving a title or two to a favored son, but as long as you keep the number of troublemakers not so large you should be fine. Eventually their claims will die out. Also to keep your court size down, matrilineally marry away any male courtier layabouts who are serving no purpose, and similarly marry away any of the extraneous female courtiers that pop up.
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in the TOG start Basil is set up nicely with a father and brother that you can marry off and start making dynastic branches off the bat that wont have claims to the empire.
 
I've looked at other characters who will be fun to join the empire or take it over. Italy is such a problem with TOG start. All the Karlings have claims on it, and I've tried playing as Tuscany as a start, which has a claim on Rome and can inherit Spoleto-Ferrara in a few steps. Any other favorite characters to start for the ERE? Besides the emperor in 867.
 
Honestly I think it's kinda sad that handing out king titles isn't an option. In my opinion the kings should take care of your vassals and not plotting and factioning around the moment they can.
 
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Vassal kings seem especially dangerous when they have a claim on the imperial title. Good to put them in a kingdom that is de jure part of the empire, if you are going to use them. They tend to create and then hand out all the ducal titles in their kingdom if that's an issue for you (I keep a lot of two-county duchies uncreated).
 
I know this is horrible (to some) but I simulate provincial governorships by handing out kingdom titles to a loyal or dynastic vassal, then 'play <character id>' and 'succ appointment'. On death the kingdom title reverts to you, and you can reissue it to another worthy servant. Or one who you REALLY need to pacify.
 
Personally I don't have many problems with independence factions (or at least I'm able to crush them more or less easily).
But what gives me a headache are the constant claimant factions! With the (new) reduced personal levies they quickly reach the necessary faction strength, so that my spymaster isn't able to scheme fast enough. Additionally more or less the whole realm is joining in the war making me loose the claimant war nearly instantly :(

So my question is: How do you control claimant factions, or in general how do you maintain a stable blob even with a not so perfect ruler during succession?

On a sidenote: Would elective succession get rid of claimant factions as the vassals would be able to vote for their candidate?
 
Go for absolute crown authority and revoke any uppity vassals or any that have land outside of their realm. Born in purple and eventually Augustus will keep all your vassals happy. On my save I've conquered nearly all of Europe and have all Greek vassals that keep to their de jure duchies. I have a king of Bulgaria but him and all his vassals are Greek and love me(+100 for every vassal at the moment, lowest I ever get is in the +80s sometimes but I bribe 'em). With absolute crown authority they can't conquer and I have complete power over them. I didn't even change the tax laws and I earn like 50 gold a month.
 
Contrary to the common advice, I gave all the kingdom titles to my vassals, and created a few superdukes. It seems easier for me to control a smaller number of vassals (even though the "smaller" means more than a hundred in my current game :)).

I have almost all direct vassals from my dynasty, my culture and religion. Once you restore Roman empire, the Augustus trait, along with the Born in purple will give a nice opinion bonus. I havent had a civil war for a very long time.


My empire is pretty large. I started as King of Croatia, hence the title :)
jud7.jpg
 
What I've done as Byzantium-into-Rome is making a bunch Kingdoms, and giving them to loyal Greek dukes. Lesser vassals in plots can be passed off to them making them not your problem anymore, and you can easily fight a holy war and take some land then redistribute it to your Kings for a huge opinion boost. It's also easy to provoke them into rebellion individually, which you can easily crush.
 
Playing an empire without kings is too much of a clickfest. All that micro-managing of levies and vassals is ridiculously tedious. Keepings kings happy isn't hard, just grant them their de jure lands via conquest and vassal transfer, and make sure to have a super-diplomat as heir via elective succession. Everyone loves you, and you can raise several five to ten thousand strong levies and hundreds of ships in one location with a single click each, which means you can respond to any uprising, peasant revolt, or jihad before it gets going.
 
ray4ever said:
So my question is: How do you control claimant factions, or in general how do you maintain a stable blob even with a not so perfect ruler during succession?
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All too often it seems people forget about feasts, tournaments and the like. On succession do a feast and try to get Just, it is worth it. Search for plots, find a vassal of a vassal that is plotting for whatever, imprison them and release them. Go on a hunt or two and try to get Diligent. Hold a Grand Tournament.

Also keep a maxed out retinue at all times. It increases your military strength and makes it harder for factions to reach critical mass. This is extremely important to the extent I don't think world conquest was even doable before the Legacy of Rome dlc. Sure you could get big, but you could count on a civil war for the first 5 years of your new ruler's reign. With retinues it can become literally impossible for factions to reach critical mass after you get too big.
 
Right. Just finished the Pentarchy AND reformed the empire and it's the year 994. I have 11k retinues (all Greek culture retinues, so pricey in terms of retinue cap usage). I created every kingdom that I could once I had high authority and primogeniture, so my eldest son inherits all. I have no problems with factions now, with thirteen kingdoms under my belt. Unless I do something stupid. Like hitting the assassination button too many times then getting the violating the feudal contract malus. I have the augustus trait and the imperial reconquest CB. Not too shabby.

So I agree. Go big. Really big. Keep a huge standing army. All the retinues you can get, plus the Varangians and later the Holy Sepulcre. Forming kingdoms works wonders for me. Expand where you can. Remember not to attack the main Islamic provinces before you're ready to take on the Caliphate (or both of them if you're unlucky). It's lovely seeing 7k cataphracts withstand a 20k horde. Discipline and morale win the day.
 
RedRooster81 said:
Right. Just finished the Pentarchy AND reformed the empire and it's the year 994. I have 11k retinues (all Greek culture retinues, so pricey in terms of retinue cap usage). I created every kingdom that I could once I had high authority and primogeniture, so my eldest son inherits all. I have no problems with factions now, with thirteen kingdoms under my belt. Unless I do something stupid. Like hitting the assassination button too many times then getting the violating the feudal contract malus. I have the augustus trait and the imperial reconquest CB. Not too shabby.

So I agree. Go big. Really big. Keep a huge standing army. All the retinues you can get, plus the Varangians and later the Holy Sepulcre. Forming kingdoms works wonders for me. Expand where you can. Remember not to attack the main Islamic provinces before you're ready to take on the Caliphate (or both of them if you're unlucky). It's lovely seeing 7k cataphracts withstand a 20k horde. Discipline and morale win the day.
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Did you hand out any kingdoms?

In regards to attacking the main Islamic provinces, I found out that it is easiest to start with the normal dejure lands that belong to you. Then I would recommand moving towards North Africa and then towards Egypt. This is what I did and it seems to weaken them quiet a bit and makes you stronger.

I also agree about going big, it works wonders!! In fact, you will get to a point, where you no longer need your vassals Army, as your standing army+Varangians+Holy Sepulcre will be enough to defend against any Jihad or Great Holy War that is called against you. (at least it was in my game)
 
Sayle said:
I know this is horrible (to some) but I simulate provincial governorships by handing out kingdom titles to a loyal or dynastic vassal, then 'play <character id>' and 'succ appointment'. On death the kingdom title reverts to you, and you can reissue it to another worthy servant. Or one who you REALLY need to pacify.
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I think that there is the Byzantine flavor mod this does this or is working on this with a theme system. I just wanted to point this out since it might save you some hassle :).
 
I also want to add the following to this discussion:

Very early in my game, I revoked & destoryed all my duchies and I changed my succession laws to Medium CA & Agnatic-Cognatic Elective succession. During my 3rds Rulers reign, I switched to Medium CA & Agnatic Elective succession.

Once I reformed the Roman Empire, life was fairly easy with this setup because of the following reasons:

1. The only duke that I have are my republics
2. My Vassals receive a +20 bonus opinion
3. No "in-house" fighting for claims and
4. I choose who I want to ruler the Empire when I die
5. If a count has more than 1 piece of land, when they die, it will be separated among his children
6. Culture and religion conversion is faster (I think)

Disadvantages
1. Titles can still pass outside the realm
2. Counts inherit more land than I want them to have (sometimes they have up to 3 countries, which is annoying)
3. If a faction builds too strong, it can be a pain in the ass to take apart due to how much counts there are, but I have not had this problem.

As a result, this is my current Empire:

SPQR: Old Roman Borders:
80371C0DCF0747A2014E529A93E35AED4F4D8CB7
The Map
060BE61339E61BBF98C6F0F5BFBC268486A82131
 
Wolfmaster1979 said:
Did you hand out any kingdoms?

In regards to attacking the main Islamic provinces, I found out that it is easiest to start with the normal dejure lands that belong to you. Then I would recommand moving towards North Africa and then towards Egypt. This is what I did and it seems to weaken them quiet a bit and makes you stronger.

I also agree about going big, it works wonders!! In fact, you will get to a point, where you no longer need your vassals Army, as your standing army+Varangians+Holy Sepulcre will be enough to defend against any Jihad or Great Holy War that is called against you. (at least it was in my game)
Click to expand...

I keep one big retinue army that travels with me. Income is quite good currently (+25 per month), so sometimes I hire on another mercenary company. I don't really need the levies that much anymore. The Shia Caliphate did not go anywhere in my current game, so I only had to deal with the Sunni Caliph. I started by eating away at Syria except for Damascus (which is a trigger for jihads). Then I slowly put together the KoJ. This led to a rather quick defeat of the Caliph. A number of good holy wars in a row will really decimate their armies which leads to more decadence and factions.

No, I don't usually hand out the kingdom titles. I kept the imperial title at primogeniture, so each new kingdom I create is set at that automatically. I snatched Cumania (I wanted to conquer the western steppes to keep an eye on the invaders that tend to come that way) and eventually gave it to a duke there. And I handed Syria to a distant relative to make it easier to raise levies close to the frontier.

Georgia is a constant problem. It naturally expands into Alania as Khazaria collapses and then pushes into Azerbajan and Mosul. I am trying to inherit it, but it is useful as a buffer with Persia sometimes.

My first game with SoA I conquered Sicily then moved on to Tunis like I have since CK1, then the Shia Caliph sends a 20k doomstack. So I've been cautious. Egypt has been a favorite target. I took Alexandria and now I'm expanding between Tunis and there.

I do have to report on the Abbasids. They were really resilient in the current game. They lost the caliphate to decadence revolters. Then they were left as independent sultans of Syria for a while. I took it from them, then an adventurer from their dynasty became Sultan of Persia for a decade or two. Then they set up shop in Abyssinia before being chased away by another decadence revolt. Now, they've converted to Orthodox Christianity and are loyal vassals of my vassal the Despot of Syria. :)
 
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