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grenadier98

Second Lieutenant
64 Badges
Jan 23, 2011
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I'm still new to the game and just tried different things in my current one regarding mostly diplomacy and research when I realized that all European AI countries spam fortresses in every province - not just the border provinces - everywhere. It's 1857, the British Isles are full of level 2 fortresses, everyone else has just "only" level 1 fortresses. Is this normal AI behavior? I've taken a look in some let's play on youtube to get some tips and stuff and I can't remember seeing anything like this in those LPs
I don't mind forts, they were commonly used, but not to this degree, that's just ridiculous. Any idea? Any way to prevent this nonsense? I play HoD, latest patch (steam).
 
It's working as designed. With HOD they changed the sieging mechanics so that as you advance through technology it will be much quicker to siege down provinces without forts or low level forts. Basically this means that AI nations need to keep building forts everywhere to improve the defend capabilities of its provinces.

Also pre-HOD, players tended to spam forts everywhere so the devs thought that they would give the same behaviour to the AI when they rebalanced the combat gameplay.
 
Yea, I always built them everywhere just to slow down rebels if nothing else, but it provided the player an advantage. I'm glad the AI has the same behavior now.
 
It's not nonsense, as others have said. In fact, these countries have surplus resources, and forts are good for them, and make others' invasions harder, so it's completely beneficial move to put forts anywhere and everywhere to the highest level, and they do. The only problem are the sprites.
 
I wish they'd scale the cost of forts. It's one thing to have some fortifications across the country, but the lvl5 forts everywhere are a bit ridiculous. Each level should be more expensive so that you have to decide where to build the high-end ones. Right now it's Maginot line everywhere in 36.
 
Yeah, making level 3-5 a magnitude or two more expensive wouldn't hurt. I can sort of visualise level 1-2 forts as barracks and military infrastructure, but real fortresses should be be focal points for a country's military, not spread out like railroads. How about making them unique per state like naval bases? States that border an enemy could still have additional forts in border provinces (or even in each province). It's just ridiculous that country's like France or the US fortify their interior when there's hardly a worthy enemy at the border.
 
The real way to do this is to have forts have a small, but reasonable, upkeep. Then fort-spamming is sensible if you have a continuously massive oversupply. They could then be a bit more powerful (I would quite like a +organisation regain in a fortified province).
 
I wish they'd scale the cost of forts. It's one thing to have some fortifications across the country, but the lvl5 forts everywhere are a bit ridiculous. Each level should be more expensive so that you have to decide where to build the high-end ones. Right now it's Maginot line everywhere in 36.

That's what I meant :)
Forts are strongpoints to secure certain strategic points and not every corner of a contry or even a continent.
 
It almost makes you believe that war is something that should generally be avoided.

Wars never felt tedious in any of the other Paradox games I've played. Or pretty much in any game, period. This is because in V2, you constantly have to create/recreate/reorganize stacks, fight enemy armies running everywhere, then occupy tens of provinces, all while not having anything to fight because the AI doesn't rebuild while it's at war.

Forts do nothing but make that whole process take even longer than needed. They should be more like in DH, where they give massive defense, but don't make it so it's longer to occupy.
 
Wars never felt tedious in any of the other Paradox games I've played. Or pretty much in any game, period. This is because in V2, you constantly have to create/recreate/reorganize stacks, fight enemy armies running everywhere, then occupy tens of provinces, all while not having anything to fight because the AI doesn't rebuild while it's at war.

Forts do nothing but make that whole process take even longer than needed. They should be more like in DH, where they give massive defense, but don't make it so it's longer to occupy.

Waht they should do is implement move=attack (i.e., the combat system used in HOI2, DH, AoD, and HOI3), so that it's possible to seal off borders (like France tried to do in 1870), surround units (as happened to the Austrians at Koniggratz in 1866), and make occupation instant (because seriously, what is this except a kludge to slow down blobbing?).
 
Waht they should do is implement move=attack (i.e., the combat system used in HOI2, DH, AoD, and HOI3), so that it's possible to seal off borders (like France tried to do in 1870), surround units (as happened to the Austrians at Koniggratz in 1866), and make occupation instant (because seriously, what is this except a kludge to slow down blobbing?).
If it slows down blobbing, I'm highly inclined to like it.
 
Waht they should do is implement move=attack (i.e., the combat system used in HOI2, DH, AoD, and HOI3), so that it's possible to seal off borders (like France tried to do in 1870), surround units (as happened to the Austrians at Koniggratz in 1866), and make occupation instant (because seriously, what is this except a kludge to slow down blobbing?).

I agree completely. The only problem is that it isn't realistic for a bit part of the game. But then, so is the current system anyway. V2 is stuck between the old and modern era, and there's nothing we can do about that, unless we somehow put both systems in. But one thing is sure; they need to make it so we don't have to rebuild armies all the time. So annoying and tedious.
 
If it slows down blobbing, I'm highly inclined to like it.

Emphasis on the word Kludge - a messy, poorly-functioning fix. There's better ways to prevent blobbing than adding an entirely artificial delay to taking over a province.

I agree completely. The only problem is that it isn't realistic for a bit part of the game. But then, so is the current system anyway. V2 is stuck between the old and modern era.

Yup. So far they've been sticking to the line that move=attack is 'only' relevant to WW1 during the period (as if this isn't important) but even this ignores the fact that battles going back decades had been happening on long extended lines at great distances - consider the battle of Gravelotte, where the French mowed down the Prussians at a distance of 1,500 yards along a line 10 miles long - basically a province-side.
 
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Well, I certainly wouldn't suggest making occupation instant or very short. Those situations where a half-depleted cavalry division runs through half of France capturing everything in its path were always one of the most annoying things in the HoI-Series. Actually controlling the capital and the major towns and fortresses in a province should take time. It's just unrealistic that fortresses can be cheaply built everywhere and cost nothing to maintain.
 
Actually controlling the capital and the major towns and fortresses in a province should take time.

Only if they're defended and can be assaulted, like in EU or CK. Otherwise, it should be very quick. Think of how fast it was for Germany in ww1 to take over Russian territory after their armies collapsed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Faustschlag

Central Powers armies had advanced over 150 miles within a week, facing no serious resistance. German troops were now within 100 miles of Petrograd, forcing the Soviets to transfer their capital to Moscow.[6][9] The rapid advance was described as a "Railway War" (der Eisenbahnfeldzug) with German soldiers using Russian railways to advance eastward.[7] General Hoffmann wrote in his diary on February 22:

It is the most comical war I have ever known. We put a handful of infantrymen with machine guns and one gun onto a train and rush them off to the next station; they take it, make prisoners of the Bolsheviks, pick up few more troops, and so on. This proceeding has, at any rate, the charm of novelty.

This is impossible in V2, even if the opposing country has 0 defenders.
 
Only if they're defended and can be assaulted, like in EU or CK. Otherwise, it should be very quick. Think of how fast it was for Germany in ww1 to take over Russian territory after their armies collapsed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Faustschlag

"Central Powers armies had advanced over 150 miles within a week, facing no serious resistance. German troops were now within 100 miles of Petrograd, forcing the Soviets to transfer their capital to Moscow.[6][9] The rapid advance was described as a "Railway War" (der Eisenbahnfeldzug) with German soldiers using Russian railways to advance eastward.[7] General Hoffmann wrote in his diary on February 22:

It is the most comical war I have ever known. We put a handful of infantrymen with machine guns and one gun onto a train and rush them off to the next station; they take it, make prisoners of the Bolsheviks, pick up few more troops, and so on. This proceeding has, at any rate, the charm of novelty."

This is impossible in V2, even if the opposing country has 0 defenders.

Exactly. In 1870 the Prussians quickly took over whole swathes of North-West France, in 1864-5 the Union advanced rapidly across the Confederacy, in 1899-1900 the British advanced across the Orange Free State and Transvaal republics in a matter of a few months, in 1904-5 the Russians and Japanese swept across areas of North-East Asia bigger than most of Western Europe. In none of the wars during the period (or, actually, in no wars I can think of) did taking over territory require units to hang around in provinces before they came under the effective control of the attacker - it was simply a case of the army turning up. The only exception to theis rule is where manned fortifications were in place, in which case they had to be besieged first - but in the Vicky period the biggest sieges (Port Arthur, Sevastopol, Paris) the fortresses were the size of provinces, required months to capture, and cost their attackers dearly.

There simply is no grounds on which the present "occupation speed" mechanism can be justified. A move=attack model is a far more accurate way of modelling siege warfare during the period than requiring that units simply hang around in a province with no defenders taking a few casualties because of "attrition" (from where?), and then the province becomes yours.

Well, I certainly wouldn't suggest making occupation instant or very short. Those situations where a half-depleted cavalry division runs through half of France capturing everything in its path were always one of the most annoying things in the HoI-Series.

Yeah, because I can't possibly think of a real-life example of small, rapidly advancing units entering an undefended capital city and quickly taking it over in one of the period's most prominent conflicts. Oh wait.

Actually controlling the capital and the major towns and fortresses in a province should take time..

. . . because? Look, if a fortress is undefended, capturing it is simply a case of walking in. that's how the Germans captured Fort Douaumont afterall. The same goes double for an undefended city - when the Germans entered Brussels in 1914 they simply walked in and took over.

It's just unrealistic that fortresses can be cheaply built everywhere and cost nothing to maintain.

Depends. Do they represent the fortress AND its garrison? If yes, then you should pay for the garrison's upkeep, but if not, then they are just a building like any other. Currently, there is no garrison integral to each fortress (although, bafflingly, you still can't just walk in and take over fortresses because of the stupid occupation mechanism) but if there was one this might make sense.
 
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