De Jure drifting and Roman Empire

I think that's all you can do.

I'm having similar issues in my Roman Empire game. I have drifted most of the map into the empire. But I'm having funny stuff happen in the Arabian Peninsula, where the Shia Caliphate had drifted Abyssinia, Nubia, most of Arabia, and a large portion of Persia into Mesopotamia. I'm trying pry it apart now and reestablish the now titular Kingdoms of Nubia and Abyssinia. as well as reconstitute Arabia and trim Mesopotamia back to it's original de jure territory.

It's confusing, but I got a little preview when I had to drift Valencia and Beja backi into Aragon and Portugal, respectively, from Andalusia. The Byzantine ducal revokation perk is priceless. The problem is that you can't transfer non-de jure dukes to kings, it seems. So I repeatedly had to revoke a newly independent dukes title and regrant it to the king. Over and over and over. It took over 200 years to drift Beja back into Portugal. Gah. I'm hoping that, if I don't create Mesopotamia, things should go more smoothly this time. But already, there's weirdness with the duke->kingdom drift vs. kingdom->empire drift.

Some of these things will continue to elude me forever, I fear.

In theory, the drift will recede at the same rate it proceeds.

Did you account for that, or am I stupid

Luffy07 said:

And do you know what will happen if I destroy the Wendish Empire? Do all previous progress resets or do I need to wait for the progress towards Wendish to tick backwards to begin drifting to roman? Since there is no more de jure kingdoms to the empire I won't get any opinion modifier so I would rather go that way...

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I'm pretty sure it'll have to tick back before it starts drifting into the Roman Empire.

But, as I said above, I am a bit vexed by the du jure drift mechanics.

Looks like we're on a similar timeline. I'm in 1318 and I am on the verge of wc. I just "inherited" Carpathia (kill, kILl, KILL). So all that's left is Cumania (- Sarkel), the two little kingdoms east of the Black Sea, and the Shia Caliphate (Mesopotamia/Persia). But I have enough de jure territory to usurp Mesopotamia, which will utterly destroy Islam. I figure two decades of relentless holy wars should get me the rest of the map.

I incorrectly thought that the Timurids would arrive earlier than they do, so the plans for the eastern imperial expansion were, foolishly, put on hold for a generation. I was leaving spongy areas to bait the hordes into easy to attack regions. But I should have been drifting them into the empire the whole time. Anyway, there are over 40 dejure kingdoms in my Empire now. Very satisfying.

Good luck. Though, clearly, you don't need it.

I don't know it this addresses your exact issue: But since de jure drift takes place over the course of many years, it uses a count up/down timer by year. Which means that if the drift direction (Empire/Kingdom) changes, it does *not* instantly change everything. If something was held for a long time, it will take a long time for that countdown timer to go back down.

For example, as a game where I formed the Empire of Scandinavia (plus Kingdom of Ireland), I then formed the Wendish Empire (keeping Scandinavia as my primary), but when I finally got the Byzantine Empire, I changed my primary to Byzantine:

- There were several regions in Anatolia that still showed as "drifting into Persia" for a long time after I conquered them.

- The Kingdoms of Serbia and Ireland had been steadily drifting towards Scandinavia. When changing my primary empire, it took several years before they started to drift back (in the case of Serbia) or to Byzantium (for Ireland).

On a side note, one weird thing that happened was that before I got Byzantium (when I was just Scandinavia + Ireland + Wendish -> I held all the Kingdom and Empire titles), I had controlled the Kingdom of Serbia for a long time (drifting towards Scandinavia) and I also controlled the Duchy of Dyrrachion, which was held by a vassal double duke (Dyrrachion + an Irish duchy). For some reason Dyrrachion was steadily drifting towards the Kingdom of Ireland, or all things. Still not really sure why it chose Ireland. Ah well....

JRHaggs said:

It's confusing, but I got a little preview when I had to drift Valencia and Beja backi into Aragon and Portugal, respectively, from Andalusia. The Byzantine ducal revokation perk is priceless. The problem is that you can't transfer non-de jure dukes to kings, it seems. So I repeatedly had to revoke a newly independent dukes title and regrant it to the king. Over and over and over. It took over 200 years to drift Beja back into Portugal. Gah. I'm hoping that, if I don't create Mesopotamia, things should go more smoothly this time. But already, there's weirdness with the duke->kingdom drift vs. kingdom->empire drift.

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Yes, Byzantine duchy revocation and vassal retraction is probably the strongest advantage to Byzantium and the main reason why I change my primary Empire title to Byzantium, if given the option.

If you don't have that option, one thing that I did (when I couldn't freely revoke Duchies): was grant Duchy or County titles in far away places. These secondary titles are eligible for "Plot to Revoke" options. Normally, when you manually "revoke a title," I find it very rare that the vassal objects. But when I revoke a title through plots, the vast majority of the time it will be refused (even if it is a two province count flouting a multi-empire liege!). If/when the vassal refuses, you declare war and if successful, the title is revoked (gain 1 Intrigue), and the vassal is labeled a traitor, allowing you to imprison him and revoke the title you really wanted (including a primary duchy). It's all very roundabout, but I found it helpful in juggling around titles and keeping my vassals weak, before I had the luxury of Byzantine revocation.

Halcyan said:

On a side note, one weird thing that happened was that before I got Byzantium (when I was just Scandinavia + Ireland + Wendish -> I held all the Kingdom and Empire titles), I had controlled the Kingdom of Serbia for a long time (drifting towards Scandinavia) and I also controlled the Duchy of Dyrrachion, which was held by a vassal double duke (Dyrrachion + an Irish duchy). For some reason Dyrrachion was steadily drifting towards the Kingdom of Ireland, or all things. Still not really sure why it chose Ireland. Ah well....

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haha. This is what I mean about the elusive nature of the drifting mechanics. Who knows? haha

Luffy07 said:

Thank you for your input, I feared that it would need to decrease .. I'll make a non ironman test to see how it goes.
I also though the timourid would have attacked by now... I stacked 260K retinue in Persia for nothing Also I noticed that the truce breaking applies only once you can't lose more than 5 diplo... I may or may not have abused this change to conquer the byzantine empire...

For the revocation stuff: as a catholic just ask your (anti)pope to excommunicate, then imprison/release until he rebels... gamey tactics for the win

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I don't normally break truces so I can't say about whether the diplomacy penalties stack.

However, I can say that each truce breaking causes you to lose half your prestige, which IMHO is one of the bigger penalties for breaking truces. (Though it can also be used as a gamey tactic to get your prestige low enough so you can choose the Exalted Above All Men ambition).