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Maoism was dead by this time. PRC should be a conservative (right wing) PA authoritarian country, even if it is ruled by a "Communist" party. Deng Xiaoping's ascent to power is more or less a right wing coup, even if it is an intraparty coup. Also, China never had a full state market like the USSR, Mao himself stated that to adopt a centralized policy used by the USSR would be a grave error.
 
Guys has anyone in this thread studied political science?

I'm using common terms because contrary to popular belief, not everyone here is a Marxist.
 
Maoism was dead by this time. PRC should be a conservative (right wing) authoritarian country, even if it is ruled by a "Communist" party.

Oh thank Lenin's ghost someone else in this thread who understands the subtleties of politics. Also-- a Maoist DPRK? What? Yeah, not without a coup against Great Leader in 1956.... Tiananmen Square should be an event for China that puts it firmly to the right. After all, a bunch of kids got arrested and shot for praising Mao!

Moreover I never liked the "Leninist" definition. There are Leninists who run and win western-style elections, term is so broad for "herr derr your slider is at X value, MUST be Leninist!" Silly.

as I said I think
LWR=Socialist/Democratic Socialist
LE=Hardline Socialist/Socialist/Paternal Socialist
ST= Totalitarian Leftist/Stalinist/Big Brother Totalitarian
 
I'm using common terms because contrary to popular belief, not everyone here is a Marxist.

"You disagree with me"
"Therefore you are a Marxist"

So you're saying wanting to be more accurate on the political spectrum is foolish?

Dude in the 1980s there are hardline leftist states that do NOT subscribe to Leninism or even Marxism. North Korea comes to mind. To a lesser extent, Romania. Or that are "independent socialist" ie SFRY. Then there are countries run by the "Communist Party" that pursue what would in any other country be considered a "Conservative" policy-- China? 1993 Moldova? GADDAFIAN LIBYA (or as it is formally known People's Arab Jamahariyya of Libya"). Syrian Arab Republic (lead by notably rightist "Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party.")

Heck, if FDR can make a "social democrat" US with a few slider choices, it makes no bleeding sense that Libya is "Communist." Or that Iran is "Fascist". Nuance characterizes the late Cold War and should be reflected in the game!

EDIT: Moreover the economic slider choices should matter. An authoritarian left nation with max free market should not be getting labelled "socialist" and vice-versa
 
Anarcho-Libertarian (NS) #Note that libertarian is cross-left/right spectrum, so it the political spectrum definition needs to be modded so that anything super decentralized counts as this. Alternatives: Libertarian, Anarchist
National Populist (FA) Neo-Facism, PRC today, Latin America dictatorships, RoC/Taiwan (yes Taiwan was a dictatorship during the cold war) Alternatives: Neo-Conservative, Totalitarian, Dictatorship
Traditionalist (PA) #Moderate Republicans in the US, Africa, PRC in cold war Alternatives: Paternal Autocrat, Radical Right, Reactionist
Social Conservative (SC) #Democrats in the US, RoC/Taiwan today
Market (Social) Conservative (ML) #CDU Europe, what is considered "Socialist" in the US
Market (Social) Liberal (SL) #European Center-Left Alternatives: Progressive
Democratic Socialist (SD) #Scandinavia, Latin America in the modern day Alternatives: Democratic Left, Greens
Populist Socialist (LWR) #Latin America in the modern day Alternatives: Authoritarian Socialist, Radical Socialist, Radical Left, Social Progressive
Communist (LE) #Cuba, Maoism, other modern less Authoritarian Communism Alternatives: Neo-Communist
Totalitarian Communist (ST) #N. Korea Alternative: Authoritarian Marxist-Leninist
 
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Anarcho-Libertarian (NS) #Note that libertarian is cross-left/right spectrum, so it the political spectrum definition needs to be modded so that anything super decentralized counts as this.
National Populist (FA) Neo-Facism
Traditionalist (PA) #Republicans in the US
Social Conservative (SC) #Democrats in the US
Market (Social) Conservative (ML) CDU Europe, "Socialists" in the US
Market (Social) Liberal (SL) #European Left
Democratic Socialist (SD) #Scandinavia
Authoritarian Socialist (LWR) #Latin America
Communist (LE) #Cuba
Authoritarian Marxist-Leninist (ST) N. Korea

Anarcho-X cannot and should not be represented because then you have to do it for the left, and questions arise to what will happen.
National Populist- what?
Traditionalist- 1985 Republicans? Maybe Reagan, certainly not people like Barry Goldwater or lots of GOP candidates at the time. Not John McCain...
Social Conservative- Repubs, some dems
Market conservative- What US socialists? Where? CDU fine.
Market Liberal- European left? What even the Communist parties who are dominant in 1985?
Democratic Socialism- I could see "Nordic Socialist" here.
Authoritarian Socialist- Trying to say Allende or Chavez or Morales aren't democratic is silly. They go the UN seal of approval. They all won fair elections. You can disagree with their economic policy but to call them blanket "authoritarian" in the game is silly. For the purposes of the game that should make sense...
Communist for LE- Meh. Possible. Socialist light in MDS might just be better.
Authoritarian M-L- Why not just Authoritarian Communist then? NK doesn't have either Marxism or Leninism on anything... the only place that would was Albania. But again a "Big Brother" state or "Totalitarian Socialist' etc just makes more sense.
 
Anarcho-X cannot and should not be represented because then you have to do it for the left, and questions arise to what will happen.
I said to modify the matrix of government types. Libertarian represents both left and right.
National Populist- what?
Chosen since I don't think people would use the name Fascism
Traditionalist- 1985 Republicans? Maybe Reagan, certainly not people like Barry Goldwater or lots of GOP candidates at the time. Not John McCain...
Should have meant Moderate Republicans
Social Conservative- Repubs, some dems
USA is actually quite conservative, look it up on international political spectrum
Market conservative- What US socialists? Where? CDU fine.
I mean this is what people considered socialists in the US.
Market Liberal- European left? What even the Communist parties who are dominant in 1985?
European Center-Left, obviously not communist.
Democratic Socialism- I could see "Nordic Socialist" here.
But it's more generic in naming
Authoritarian Socialist- Trying to say Allende or Chavez or Morales aren't democratic is silly. They go the UN seal of approval. They all won fair elections. You can disagree with their economic policy but to call them blanket "authoritarian" in the game is silly. For the purposes of the game that should make sense...
Authoritarian in the sense that they nationalize stuff..maybe "National" Socialist would be better, but that is associated with Hitler's National Socialist...Populist Socialist? Radical Socialist? Radical Left? (SYRIZA)
Communist for LE- Meh. Possible. Socialist light in MDS might just be better.
This is to represent various neo-Communist ideologies that are less hardline
Authoritarian M-L- Why not just Authoritarian Communist then? NK doesn't have either Marxism or Leninism on anything... the only place that would was Albania. But again a "Big Brother" state or "Totalitarian Socialist' etc just makes more sense.

That's fine.
 
Insert-Name. You can stop criticizing everyone's ideas. We are just giving our ideas, we aren't even saying they are accurate. You are trying to go into 'political theory' in Darkest Hour. The Sliders cannot appease the in-depth politics you want to find. If you want in-depth political titles/definitions, go play Masters of the World or an actual Geo-Political simulator, Darkest Hour can only simulate so much when it comes to Politics.
 
I said to modify the matrix of government types. Libertarian represents both left and right.

Chosen since I don't think people would use the name Fascism

Should have meant Moderate Republicans

USA is actually quite conservative, look it up on international political spectrum

I mean this is what people considered socialists in the US.

European Center-Left, obviously not communist.

But it's more generic in naming

Authoritarian in the sense that they nationalize stuff..maybe "National" Socialist would be better, but that is associated with Hitler's National Socialist...Populist Socialist? Radical Socialist? Radical Left? (SYRIZA)

This is to represent various neo-Communist ideologies that are less hardline
That's fine.[/QUOTE]

The problem with libertarianism/anarchism of any shade: never been tried before. So I got no clue how to even begin and it'll make a whole lotta work. Just imagine how wildly different that economic model would be? It'd be hard to replicate with the limited IC system.

Aside from that agree with most of your points-- especially in regard to the American worldview. THrough that lens your sliders make total sense. I have a more British lookout so "socialist" or "traditionalist" can vary quite widely.

Really like populist socialist-- makes great sense in this period. Very descriptive.
 
Insert-Name. You can stop criticizing everyone's ideas. We are just giving our ideas, we aren't even saying they are accurate. You are trying to go into 'political theory' in Darkest Hour. The Sliders cannot appease the in-depth politics you want to find. If you want in-depth political titles/definitions, go play Masters of the World or an actual Geo-Political simulator, Darkest Hour can only simulate so much when it comes to Politics.

In any discussion there is the "devil's advocate." As you can see, I threw in my lot with a list made by somebody else. I understand the sliders are limited, hence why I'm suggesting more GENERIC names to make the game immersive but also accomodating to the hodge-podge of ideologies of the 80's. You are free to disagree. I'm trying to construct as well and sometimes the criticism can be harsher which I don't mean it to be. But I am about making an awesome game; the floor was open to Slider options, and I feel this makes more sense.

I'd personally choose "socialist' over "communist" but can understand why it would be put in for the 80's. I just like having it in there in case you get a 21st century Nasser which would be super neat :D but not "communist" necessarily (despite dem sliders). It's about accuracy, immersion, and fun and for me it kinda breaks the flow/fun of the game when I'm playing vanill and avowedly anti-communist president of Brazil Vargas is suddenly "Leninist" it just makes me do a huge question mark. Same goes when you get "Fascist" Poland....
 
In any discussion there is the "devil's advocate." As you can see, I threw in my lot with a list made by somebody else. I understand the sliders are limited, hence why I'm suggesting more GENERIC names to make the game immersive but also accomodating to the hodge-podge of ideologies of the 80's. You are free to disagree. I'm trying to construct as well and sometimes the criticism can be harsher which I don't mean it to be. But I am about making an awesome game; the floor was open to Slider options, and I feel this makes more sense.

I'd personally choose "socialist' over "communist" but can understand why it would be put in for the 80's. I just like having it in there in case you get a 21st century Nasser which would be super neat :D but not "communist" necessarily (despite dem sliders). It's about accuracy, immersion, and fun and for me it kinda breaks the flow/fun of the game when I'm playing vanill and avowedly anti-communist president of Brazil Vargas is suddenly "Leninist" it just makes me do a huge question mark. Same goes when you get "Fascist" Poland....

TBH I would prefer a 3 dimensional 21 government type system like in NationStates, splitting by Political, Personal, and Economic freedom is much more accurate. It's not like we don't have an economy slider. We also have an open/closed society slider. Tbh, the Left/Right slider could be completely removed. Only Authoritarian-Democrat, Open/Closed, and Free/Planned are really needed.
 
TBH I would prefer a 3 dimensional 21 government type system like in NationStates, splitting by Political, Personal, and Economic freedom is much more accurate. It's not like we don't have an economy slider. We also have an open/closed society slider. Tbh, the Left/Right slider could be completely removed. Only Authoritarian-Democrat, Open/Closed, and Free/Planned are really needed.

Agreed but Paradox had to make their game somehow haha and I do enjoy its current form. I think a slighty modified version of your list makes most sense and would be easier for the esteemed devs to do. Though its true the NationStates system is mucho neato.
 
OK, I'm doing tech teams, so please, if you have a few minutes, can you give me a quick idea of who the major industrial etc etc companies were/are in your country (1985-), so I can make as accurate a job as I possible can. It will also save me much time, and the mod will get completed, and be better, quicker. Thanks
 
OK, I'm doing tech teams, so please, if you have a few minutes, can you give me a quick idea of who the major industrial etc etc companies were/are in your country (1985-), so I can make as accurate a job as I possible can. It will also save me much time, and the mod will get completed, and be better, quicker. Thanks

Check your email inbox...
 
@nova: I'll provide you when I have enough time for it, although most of the MDS ones could be used, I believe, barring SRI (and maybe others, but I don't have access to a computer now).

As for the ideologies, I humbly propose using the MDS ones. Alternatively,

NS - Neo-fascist
FA - Autocracy (à la Gaddafi)
PA - Reactionary (current EFD countries, most nationalist parties)
SC - Conservative (International Democrat Union, ECR, EPP and generally all Christian-Democratic countries, Republicans)
ML - Liberal (ALDE, Liberal International, US Libertarians)
SL - Social Liberal / Progressive (US Democrats, Greens, EDP, progressives)
SD - Social Democrat (PES, Socialist International)
LWR - Socialist
LE - Marxist-Leninist
ST - Stalinist
 
I'm more than happy to assist with doing OOB's. Once you have your provinces and tech-tree sorted I can use my military balance 1990 and give you a roughly authentic sort of version of most nations. In the case of minors who only really operate with battalion sized units, do we just upscale them so they are still somewhat relevant ingame?
 
Check your email inbox...

Hi Kretoxian! Yes I got it, very good it looks too. Thanks

@nova: I'll provide you when I have enough time for it, although most of the MDS ones could be used, I believe, barring SRI (and maybe others, but I don't have access to a computer now).

As for the ideologies, I humbly propose using the MDS ones. Alternatively,

NS - Neo-fascist
FA - Autocracy (à la Gaddafi)
PA - Reactionary (current EFD countries, most nationalist parties)
SC - Conservative (International Democrat Union, ECR, EPP and generally all Christian-Democratic countries, Republicans)
ML - Liberal (ALDE, Liberal International, US Libertarians)
SL - Social Liberal / Progressive (US Democrats, Greens, EDP, progressives)
SD - Social Democrat (PES, Socialist International)
LWR - Socialist
LE - Marxist-Leninist
ST - Stalinist

Yes I had a good look this morning at the tech teams. I've decided, well, with hansnery's agreement of course (mod leader), to use the MDS tech teams, but to improve them, as they are just ... well they could be a bit better. Where there is only 1 or 2 tiles matching, I will make it 3, 4 or 5. Just make it look better overall.


I'm more than happy to assist with doing OOB's. Once you have your provinces and tech-tree sorted I can use my military balance 1990 and give you a roughly authentic sort of version of most nations. In the case of minors who only really operate with battalion sized units, do we just upscale them so they are still somewhat relevant ingame?

I think you'll have to wait for hansnery to reply. He is the mod leader and he is in Brazil. So it may be a couple of hours yet before you hear from him??
 
@nova: I'll provide you when I have enough time for it, although most of the MDS ones could be used, I believe, barring SRI (and maybe others, but I don't have access to a computer now).

As for the ideologies, I humbly propose using the MDS ones. Alternatively,

NS - Neo-fascist
FA - Autocracy (à la Gaddafi)
PA - Reactionary (current EFD countries, most nationalist parties)
SC - Conservative (International Democrat Union, ECR, EPP and generally all Christian-Democratic countries, Republicans)
ML - Liberal (ALDE, Liberal International, US Libertarians)
SL - Social Liberal / Progressive (US Democrats, Greens, EDP, progressives)
SD - Social Democrat (PES, Socialist International)
LWR - Socialist
LE - Marxist-Leninist
ST - Stalinist

This one is best by now, altough I'd keep out Fascist and Stalinist for sake of global usage. NS must be suitable for use in various cases, be it Neo-Fascists, Ultranationalists or religious fundamentalists. So maybe National Populist would be the only good option that would get all that under one umbrella? Keep in mind that Iran will be playing important role in this scenario for example, so various hardline factions on Left and Right will be more diverse and will need good general coverage. Thus, National Populism (altough borrowed from KR) would be great coverage for all radical Right-Wing movements with powerful agenda that is stronger than simple desire for conservation of old values and preservation of power. So I'd gladly take your system, just with few comments of mine:

NS - Neo-fascist - change to National Populist for broader coverage?
FA - Autocracy (à la Gaddafi) - okay for all paternal dictatorships (altough considering Libya, Syria, Iraq and others will be LWR due to need of stronger Arab socialist agenda due to pro-Soviet orientation), maybe I'd suggest small modification into Paternal Autocrat for grammatical reasons to suit general system
PA - Reactionary (current EFD countries, most nationalist parties) - national conservatives, limited/nominal democracies, soft authoritarians...
SC - Conservative (International Democrat Union, ECR, EPP and generally all Christian-Democratic countries, Republicans) - okay
ML - Liberal (ALDE, Liberal International, US Libertarians) - good
SL - Social Liberal / Progressive (US Democrats, Greens, EDP, progressives) -Progressive sounds good
SD - Social Democrat (PES, Socialist International)
LWR - Socialist - nominal Marxists that abandoned key elements like full central planning (Yugoslavia, reformist PRC), non-Marxist (Arab socialist, Burmese socialist) or Marxist-influenced (Salvation Thelogy, Left-Wing populism and nationalism)
LE - Marxist-Leninist - regular ideologically orthodox regimes that follow classic Soviet doctrine, most of Warsaw Pact, Indochina
ST - Stalinist[/QUOTE] - maybe Neo-Stalinist like Brezhnev-styled hardliners? Ideological orthodoxy is reinforced by Stalinist elements like nationalism, strong personality cult etc. (North Korea fits here). It's not necessary meant in critical way, it would be simply a term that describes subscribing to stream of Soviet hardliners

Here's a short summary then:

NS - National Populist
FA - Paternal Autocrat
PA - Reactionary
SC - Conservative
ML - Liberal
SL - Progressive
SD - Social Democrat
LWR - Socialist
LE - Marxist-Leninist
ST - Neo-Stalinist


@ Novapaddy: Using modified MDS teams is great idea!
 
OK, I'm doing tech teams, so please, if you have a few minutes, can you give me a quick idea of who the major industrial etc etc companies were/are in your country (1985-), so I can make as accurate a job as I possible can. It will also save me much time, and the mod will get completed, and be better, quicker. Thanks

Have you tried searching for "defense contractor"? IIRC you can find something in wikipedia using this, but google would be better to find for the period though. But modifying existing MDS ones seems like the better idea, but would be good to check the company's foundation or if they are still in business so no anachronism happens.

I'm more than happy to assist with doing OOB's. Once you have your provinces and tech-tree sorted I can use my military balance 1990 and give you a roughly authentic sort of version of most nations. In the case of minors who only really operate with battalion sized units, do we just upscale them so they are still somewhat relevant ingame?

You can talk to Kretoxian about the OOBs, he's taking care of them now. The mod will feature both divisions and brigades but not battalion sized units. Since we are making the 1985 first. The correct model for most countries should be number 4 (1985) or number 3 (1980) for poorer countries. Here's the new ones in the division_types file:
Code:
d_01 = {		# Infantry Brigade
	#ID			41
	type		= infantry
	name		= NAME_BRIGADE
	short_name	= SNAME_BRIGADE
	desc		= LDESC_BRIGADE
	short_desc	= SDESC_BRIGADE
	eyr			= 1
	sprite		= infantry
	transmute	= infantry
	gfx_prio	= 2
	infantry	= yes	
	value		= 1.0
	list_prio	= 10
}
d_02 = {		# Motorized Infantry Brigade
	#ID			42
	type		= motorized
	name		= NAME_MOT_BRIGADE
	short_name	= SNAME_MOT_BRIGADE
	desc		= LDESC_BRIGADE
	short_desc	= SDESC_MOT_BRIGADE
	eyr			= 1
	sprite		= motorized
	transmute	= infantry
	gfx_prio	= 2
	infantry	= yes	
	value		= 1.0
	list_prio	= 10
}
d_03 = {		# Special Forces
	#ID			43
	type		= infantry
	name		= NAME_SPECIAL_FORCES
	short_name	= SNAME_SPECIAL_FORCES
	desc		= LDESC_SPECIAL_FORCES
	short_desc	= SDESC_SPECIAL_FORCES
	eyr			= 1
	sprite		= infantry
	transmute	= infantry
	gfx_prio	= 2
	infantry	= yes	
	value		= 1.0
	list_prio	= 10
}
d_04 = {		# Air Cavalry
	#ID			44
	type		= cavalry
	name		= NAME_AIR_CAVALRY
	short_name	= SNAME_AIR_CAVALRY
	desc		= LDESC_AIR_CAVALRY
	short_desc	= SDESC_AIR_CAVALRY
	eyr			= 1
	sprite		= cavalry
	transmute	= infantry
	gfx_prio	= 2
	infantry	= yes	
	value		= 1.0
	list_prio	= 10
}
d_05 = {		# Marine Brigade
	#ID			45
	type		= marine
	name		= NAME_MARINE_BRIGADE
	short_name	= SNAME_MARINE_BRIGADE
	desc		= LDESC_MARINE
	short_desc	= SDESC_MARINE_BRIGADE
	eyr			= 8
	sprite		= marine
	transmute	= infantry
	gfx_prio	= 4
	value		= 1.5
	list_prio	= 50
}
d_06 = {		# Mechanized Brigade
	#ID			46
	type		= mechanized
	name		= NAME_MECHANIZED_BRIGADE
	short_name	= SNAME_MECHANIZED_BRIGADE
	desc		= LDESC_MECHANIZED
	short_desc	= SDESC_MECHANIZED_BRIGADE
	eyr			= 4
	sprite		= mechanized
	transmute	= motorized
	gfx_prio	= 8
	value		= 1.7
	list_prio	= 90
}
 
@ hansnery: Your divisions_types file is wrong at d_01 etc... You can only have one instance of infantry = yes, or any other class of unit can only have ( class of unit = yes) once in that file.

Surprised it didn't crash.