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Thread: I just don't understand how to win any more.

  1. #1

    I just don't understand how to win any more.

    I'll be succinct. This is another combat gripe thread. 1.2 was awful, 1.3 is an entirely different shade of awful, but it's confounded by the fact that where in 1.2 I at least thought I understood the troubles I faced, I just don't understand why I'm losing battles in 1.3 at all.

    I will use some brief and general examples that I'm rather irritably bringing out of a resoundingly lost war as Hannover against Bohemia, from the last 15 minutes. My frustration reached its climax when Bohemia attacked my troops across a river, in forest, accruing a -2 penalty to their rolls. They started with 17,000 infantry, 6,000 cavalry, and 9,000 cannon. A total of 32,000 men. I was defending with 16,000 infantry, 4,000 cavalry, and 15,000 cannon. Totalling 15,000 men. My general was 1 fire, 3 shock, theirs was 2 fire, 2 shock. They started with 6.5 morale average, I with 5.5 average. They had 100% discipline, no bonus combat ability from quality ideas group. I had 125% discipline, and 10% combat ability for all troop types (full quality chain). In the first fire and shock rolls of the battle, I rolled equal to or higher than Bohemia, before modifiers (and those modifiers were, due to terrain, definitely in my favour). Whilst I didn't do the math, I'd say the rolls for the whole battle fell somewhere between even and considerably in my favour - again, before modifiers.

    So I'm trying to fathom how it is possible that Bohemia left this battle with 19,000 men. And I left it with 9,000.

  2. #2
    Your soldiers revolted and joined Bohemia , I also have problems with those bloody battles which only kill 1000's of men at the players side... the computer is or completely destroyed or gets away with a few deaths

  3. #3
    Where they ahead in tech? If not I'd say you hit a 0 vs a 9. Generally 1 tech lvl can make a big difference. For example try fighting Castile as France immediately after you peace out the HYW war, you will probably lose. However if you wait till tech 4 which you'll get much faster than him, the result is a massacre of spanish troops.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Korashy View Post
    Where they ahead in tech? If not I'd say you hit a 0 vs a 9. Generally 1 tech lvl can make a big difference. For example try fighting Castile as France immediately after you peace out the HYW war, you will probably lose. However if you wait till tech 4 which you'll get much faster than him, the result is a massacre of spanish troops.
    Same tech (20). And as I said, I watched the dice rolls. They were fair, pushing towards being in my favour, the *most* against me roll was an 8 to 3, and that was during a morale phase. The trouble is, the combats are still... Not clear enough. Outcomes are a complete mystery to me, with every dice roll. And I thought I knew virtually everything there was to know - at least about how to stack odds in my favour. But it seems I do not, and as is only possible... I don't know what it is that I don't know - and the game doesn't help me - in any way, shape or form - to find out. So I can't improve or prepare better for next time. I'm not necessarily saying the battle system is broken - it might be, I don't know, but if it isn't there are mechanics at work that aren't being made clear to the player, and it's hard to want to play when I have no idea how to prepare for the future.
    Last edited by Siralus; 10-11-2013 at 05:47.

  5. #5
    Colonel cwg9's Avatar
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    I have a feeling your problem is your lower morale.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by cwg9 View Post
    I have a feeling your problem is your lower morale.
    That doesn't explain the disproportionate casualty ratio - it would only explain losing the battle to begin.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Siralus View Post
    That doesn't explain the disproportionate casualty ratio - it would only explain losing the battle to begin.
    Not really. As soon as you had a few units rout you got arty in the front row which takes hellacious casualties. You had a 3k total manpower advantage but you also had almost 50% artillery. He actually outnumbered you in inf/cav so he potentially also got to flank some units. which, combined with his morale advantage, quickly routed them and exposed your artillery. If you look at those ending numbers you probably see a good chunk of his is from undamaged artillery vs your shredded artillery.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by brifbates View Post
    Not really. As soon as you had a few units rout you got arty in the front row which takes hellacious casualties. You had a 3k total manpower advantage but you also had almost 50% artillery. He actually outnumbered you in inf/cav so he potentially also got to flank some units. which, combined with his morale advantage, quickly routed them and exposed your artillery. If you look at those ending numbers you probably see a good chunk of his is from undamaged artillery vs your shredded artillery.
    Except... My artillery should be ripping his infantry apart far faster than his 2 flanking cavalry whittle down my flanks, no? And even if what you're saying is true. I had 9k men left. Even if that meant they had 0 cannon remaining - I'd have lost all of my cavalry and 7,000 of my 16,000 infantry to go as low. (Which is obviously not what happened, the casualties were staggered disproportionately towards the infantry.)

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Siralus View Post
    Except... My artillery should be ripping his infantry apart far faster than his 2 flanking cavalry whittle down my flanks, no?
    Not when he wrecks your morale because morale damage scales with morale. So you are taking more and doing less, it takes 6 of your units breaking to expose artillery. Also, he had a better fire rating on his general which cuts into the damage you could do with your artillery.

    Another issue that hasn't been discussed is unit types. At tech 19 there are 3 options for infantry units, if you both have the same then modifiers wash out but if you don't have the same then some match-ups can be highly unfavorable.

  10. #10
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    You might want to correct your addition. I was about to lambast you for complaining about a lost battle when outnumbered by more than 2:1.

  11. #11
    Major Bibor's Avatar
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    Here's what I think happened. Due to their slightly better morale, your front row troops got slightly routed faster. Now that usually isn't a problem, but in your case, both armies were "edging it": combat width at tech level 19 - if I'm not mistaken is 15. You had 3000 less men and of these 2 less cav. It's entirely possible that your front row got routed one combat cycle too early and, as someone already mentioned, your cannons were facing infantry and - what's worse - cavalry.

    The other thing that could've happened is that you didn't consolidate regiments before the fight. Although it eats into your treasury (as it effectively removes troops from the game), I have yet to win a fight with less than 700-800 units per front row regiment. Anything below 500 is basically a loss against an equal army and at 300 your army will get routed very quickly.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siralus View Post
    I'll be succinct. This is another combat gripe thread. 1.2 was awful, 1.3 is an entirely different shade of awful, but it's confounded by the fact that where in 1.2 I at least thought I understood the troubles I faced, I just don't understand why I'm losing battles in 1.3 at all.

    I will use some brief and general examples that I'm rather irritably bringing out of a resoundingly lost war as Hannover against Bohemia, from the last 15 minutes. My frustration reached its climax when Bohemia attacked my troops across a river, in forest, accruing a -2 penalty to their rolls. They started with 17,000 infantry, 6,000 cavalry, and 9,000 cannon. A total of 32,000 men. I was defending with 16,000 infantry, 4,000 cavalry, and 15,000 cannon. Totalling 15,000 men. My general was 1 fire, 3 shock, theirs was 2 fire, 2 shock. They started with 6.5 morale average, I with 5.5 average. They had 100% discipline, no bonus combat ability from quality ideas group. I had 125% discipline, and 10% combat ability for all troop types (full quality chain). In the first fire and shock rolls of the battle, I rolled equal to or higher than Bohemia, before modifiers (and those modifiers were, due to terrain, definitely in my favour). Whilst I didn't do the math, I'd say the rolls for the whole battle fell somewhere between even and considerably in my favour - again, before modifiers.

    So I'm trying to fathom how it is possible that Bohemia left this battle with 19,000 men. And I left it with 9,000.
    His front rank is 17 infantry and 6 cavalry (23 regiments) with 9 cannons in the back.
    You only have 16 infantry and 4 cavalry (20 regiments) so you will complete your front rank with 3 cannons that will be crushed because they suffer double damage in the front. Also that leff 12 cannons in the back.

    During the battle your cannons will be smashed and probably will flee quickly so you will take more regiments from the back adding them to the front. His bigger morale will help here. Finally you will end your back line reinforcements so the enemy can flank you. At this point your casualties are bigger than the enemy casualties but being flanked they will skyrocket.
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  13. #13
    Having enough Cav and Inf to fill the front-line + a couple % extra for causalities is really important.

  14. #14
    I'm not convinced, really, but at least this have given me something to work with, so thanks guys.

    And to Paradox - threads like this are not the hallmark of an effective user interface.

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