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You might want to check up on this... American Civil war - Northern states - 23 million - South states 5.5 million (I am excluding slaves for obvious reason) - 23%....
23% what? Civilians and soldiers, not just the second. Wiki puts the number of Union soliders at 2,1 million, which, going by your estimatate is about 10% of the total.
And apparently your number (again Wiki) says that's in 1850, so the actual number should be higher.
And apparently your number (again Wiki) says that's in 1850, so the actual number should be higher.
Without getting into the historical debate, I think that's a very fair solution.
Firstly you are confusing your numbers.... population according to census of 1860 - 31 million total including slaves. 9 million of these live in the south. Population of north thus 22 million. Population of free south people 5 million. So this is 22%. The amount of czech germans actively wanting to secede is 15%... So why in your view 22% should be enought to trigger the "civil war" event and 15% is not enough to raise dissent by 30%?
Like I said before anything can be coded, but if the goal is to try to accurately mod this the penalty of 30 dissent is fair.... You have to remember that in the areas of question - Germans were the majority not minority...
Also, what kind of percentage of people do you think would object to a Czechoslovak war of aggression against Germany? Less than 30% I doubt it…..
And yes, I do realize that this sound strange – war of aggression against Germany, but you have to remember that this is pre-danzing, pre-ww2… the German takeover is already sanctioned by most of the world…
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Sorry, you're right about that. But more to the point, not all the people wanting to secede will dare to fight for their cause.
In any case, my concern is that this just kills you, without any chance or method that can prevent it. Gameplay-wise that's horrible.
Aha, as they say true da.... Here is easier way, with no modding required. 1) Accept sudentland crisis, secede the forts, 2)RP a political coupe, use Freedom cheat to make war wage able, 3) Start war with the scumbags and reclaim your territory..
Try falling back to prague and defend. IC difference is too great, it will not be a fair fight
It is not. For variety of reasons:
1) Czechoslovak defensive lines were mostly behind German-inhabited parts. In the middle of September 38, the government already ceased any attempts on controlling these areas, as Czechoslovak officials were shot at, often by weapons smuggled from the Reich, resulting in 500 dead until the end of crisis.
2) Dissent in Czechoslovakian army would hardly have any significance, as Germans were not officers and were not placed in the frontline units. Germans were placed either in units placed in Slovakia, or in artillery and logistical corps of other units. Apart from some units of Rote Wehr, all Germans had Czechoslovak officers.
3) For the whole September, there were demonstrations supporting the war with Germany.
4) Slovaks, nor Ruthenians, ever sided with Germany while Czechoslovakia was still up.
I do not intend to hijack the thread, but, please, do not judge historical objectivity of something you have nearly no clue about.
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IC modifier penalty combined with TC penalty would be the most "historically accurate" solution. Not like CZE needs more maluses, due to its strange IC and all, but this would be great, instead of out-of-the-moon dissent hit.
So Slovakians were willing to go to war with Germany so Czechs could keep control of the frontier in Bohemia? (the frontier populated by Germans...)
Also how did the Hungarians living in Slovakia feel about Prague going to war with the 3rd Reich, all alone and against the wishes of the allies?
I'm doubting all the Slovak and Hungarian mothers and fathers were happy about their sons being thrown into a hopeless situation.
p.s. this was a newly made up fake country, how did they have all this pride and willingness to defend the borders?
Also how did the Hungarians living in Slovakia feel about Prague going to war with the 3rd Reich, all alone and against the wishes of the allies?
I'm doubting all the Slovak and Hungarian mothers and fathers were happy about their sons being thrown into a hopeless situation.
p.s. this was a newly made up fake country, how did they have all this pride and willingness to defend the borders?
Slovakians were loyal to the Prague, because it protected them against the Hungary, or - as bad as it may sound - was their only chance on autonomy, because Slovakia was both small and poor. Later on, they were given a choice - either abandon Czecho-Slovakia or be merged into Hungary once again. Not a hard choice really. German anti Czechoslovak rhetorics also had not helped much. Slovakian desertion rates later on (when fighting for the Germans) kinda do tell that they were not exactly super happy about their overlords. Also, it was not about frontiers, but about geopolitical situation and strategic neutralisation - if you look closely, you will find out that ceased territory is not copying the demographical map, and is occassionaly cutting vital railroad line there, extending to incorporate fortifications elsewhere and stuff like that.
Public in Czechoslovakia, be it Czech or Slovakian, was not concerned by allied opinion at all. It was looked upon as treason; which it basically was. People felt betrayed by Britain and France, especially because both advised the country to go to war some three days earlier and ensured that Czechoslovakia will receive full backing. Not to mention that it is generally a good idea to talk to a party that is being talked about, instead of dictating the terms and still call yourself ally.
Quite good indication of loyalty is the percentage of men obeying the mobilisation order - 126.000 men (out of 1.253.000 men) refused to obey, out of this 100.000 Germans.
As for newly made up fake country (which does sound kind of silly, coming from Florida), Czechoslovakia was found in its historical borders (Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia), not by ethnical key; the Slovakian parts were more arbitrary, that is true.
Public in Czechoslovakia, be it Czech or Slovakian, was not concerned by allied opinion at all. It was looked upon as treason; which it basically was. People felt betrayed by Britain and France, especially because both advised the country to go to war some three days earlier and ensured that Czechoslovakia will receive full backing. Not to mention that it is generally a good idea to talk to a party that is being talked about, instead of dictating the terms and still call yourself ally.
Quite good indication of loyalty is the percentage of men obeying the mobilisation order - 126.000 men (out of 1.253.000 men) refused to obey, out of this 100.000 Germans.
As for newly made up fake country (which does sound kind of silly, coming from Florida), Czechoslovakia was found in its historical borders (Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia), not by ethnical key; the Slovakian parts were more arbitrary, that is true.
It's true indeed that the allies missed a golden opportunity by not going to war over Sudetenland. The fortresses in the mountains gave an excellent defensive line, one that could even be reinforced by Soviets if necessary. The Czech army was modern and willing to fight. The Germans would not have been able to break through and simultaneously conduct war with the Allies; it being also a year earlier than the historical war. Hitler could and should have been stopped right there and then: we never would have had a 6-year long WW2 in Europe if they had done so.
??? are you insane? by 1938 the germans were in absolutely no condition to attack the sudetes and Czechoslovakia. Case Green, the planned invasion, would have failed utterly, not to mention that an unsanctioned attack by germany on the Czechs would have triggered a response by the western allies almost certainly.
1) Source please... Maps I am looking at clear show that a good chunk of these was in the area with the majority of German population, especially in the area bordering Austria. Again please provide info where it would say that Czechoslavakia made an effort to exuding placing forts in german area, and where this was a consideration based on national traits rather that strategic planning. 2) And how this is going to stop the fifth column? You are saying that Germans in the middle of the country will stand idly in such a war? 3) This is irrelevant as the demonstrations happened before the "in-game" event.... 4) I am assuming you mean never, right?
1) What I've meant is the area where the Germans were most likely to attack - ie. western and northern borders of Bohemia. All you really need to do is to look at the maps. Fortification in the northerno-easternish areas were close to the border due to industrial and terrain reasons, but they passed mostly by uninhabited mountains; in the south (borders with Austria) the fortifications were copying the nationality distribution, until it reached the Thaya river (waterworks played rather important role in the south); which was then used as a defensive line. I will PM or post you the book list once I get home.
2) What? Germans never had a unit that was made only from Germans. There was no distinction like in K.u.K armee on what nationality the unit is from. There were units with bigger percentage of foreigners and units with smaller, but every unit had more Czechs than other nationalities and had Czech officer corps. I do not mean to downplay the courage and suicidal behaviour of Czechoslovak citizens of German nationality, but I very much doubt that driver driving a lorry near Košice or artilleryman surrounded by motivated Czechoslovaks who are all doing their duties, are going to get themselves killed and demonstrate their über loyalty to the foreign dictator by handing the ammo slower or driving the truck badly or by firing their firearms against their colleagues. Frontline infantry, tank units, air force pilots and fortification crews were exclusively of Czech and Slovakian nationality. Germans were 10 percent in the army, and not present at the officer functions generally. German officers had their political checks.
3) But it shows that anti-war demonstrations would be highly unlikely.
4) Yes.
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The thing that was giving the best chances to the CZE was the Wehrmacht itself that was much much weaker than one year later. As for fortifications - they were there, but their importance is usually overhyped (but they would still be very very usefull.. They were never (ie. in the defense concept of the country) meant to stop the aggressor, but to delay him. The defense plans of Czechoslovakian staff was basically slow retreat to the east, abandoning the fortresses even, if there was a danger of them being cut off from the rest. Also, fortifications were not completed in 38. Light fortifications were (despite some more serious shortages - cases of missing ventilation system, meaning that some of the bunkers would have to fight with open doors), but were in quite a good shape. Heavy frontline fortresses (with 37mm autocannos) were generally not equipped and were very rare. Heavy support fortresses (mortar, howitzer) had not their weapons installed at all. Soviets would not help - all attempt at a deal with Poland and Romania to either allow land transfer of the units or to provide air corridor had failed. The Czech army was starting to build heavy airfields to receive help and station the TB-3 bombers, but how they would get to CZE is a mystery.
1) Case green called for 3 pronged invasion - on two of these (from direction of Vienna for example) the intial border is heavily populated by germans, would these people resists the german or support the Czechoslovak army ? 2) Sabotage never happened to occupying forces, right? You have to remember that these people never viewed themselves as being part of the country... 3) So Slovaks and Cze can protest, but the German citizens of Czechoslovakia can not?
1) Case Green planned a push from the west. The attack from north through Silesia was unreal as this was the only area with completed fortifications and mountains. It was literally the most entrenched and fortified part of borders with the best terrain to defend. On the borders with Austria, Czechoslovak army was outnumbering Germans 3 to 1.
2) Czechoslovakia was occupying Czechoslovakia? Right. Sudetenland had never ever belonged to Germany. Also - they had viewed themselves as a part of the country until the great depression and the miraculous savior that was offering easy salvation. And not to mention that as any people, Germans were diverse in their opinions. Social democrats, Christian democrats, Communists were all loyal to the Prague and were opposing Berlin. Until the anschluss of Austria; that was the point where they realised that Czechoslovakia is going to fall sooner or later and switched to support of SdP (with the exception of commies who remained loyal), cause they didnt want to be liquidated as a people with different opinion.
3) German citizens were minority in the areas behind the frontlines. I cannot recall any German demonstration outside of the Sudetenland.
2) Czechoslovakia was occupying Czechoslovakia? Right. Sudetenland had never ever belonged to Germany. Also - they had viewed themselves as a part of the country until the great depression and the miraculous savior that was offering easy salvation. And not to mention that as any people, Germans were diverse in their opinions. Social democrats, Christian democrats, Communists were all loyal to the Prague and were opposing Berlin. Until the anschluss of Austria; that was the point where they realised that Czechoslovakia is going to fall sooner or later and switched to support of SdP (with the exception of commies who remained loyal), cause they didnt want to be liquidated as a people with different opinion.
3) German citizens were minority in the areas behind the frontlines. I cannot recall any German demonstration outside of the Sudetenland.