+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 53

Thread: Can't vassalise due to insufficient base tax?

  1. #21
    Colonel bleakie's Avatar
    Cities in Motion 2March of the EaglesSengokuEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Hong Kong, China
    Posts
    950
    After making clear how tax base works, I have renewed my study. As a sidenote, tax base includes your capital bonus, temples and half of your vassal's tax base.
    The examples are no longer restricted to OPMs.
    Observing from the Ottomans, after annexing Albania. Tax base=100.
    Country name; tax base; opinion modifier
    Connacht; 4; +30
    Naxos; 5; +30
    Munster; 6; +30
    Mecklenburg; 7; +29
    Urbino; 8; +2
    Liege; 9; -17
    Aachen; 10; -31
    Magdeburg; 11; -41
    Salzburg; 12; -49
    Serbia; 13; -55
    Brunswick; 14; -59
    Yemen; 15; -63
    Oman; 16; -67
    Pomerania; 17; -69

    My conclusion: if target state has a tax base smaller than 7% of yours, then a +30 opinion bonus will apply. If target state has a tax base larger than 12% of yours, then you need to have huge positive buffs to offset the 50+ opinion penalty. If the tax base ratio is between 7% and 12%, then the vassalization will be somewhat similar to 1-3 province states pre-1.2.

  2. #22
    spammeur repenti MiniaAr's Avatar
    EU3 CompleteDivine WindHeir to the Throne

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Luxembourg
    Posts
    3,653
    Thank you for your analysis, I'm also playing an Ottomans game and vassalisation of Tripoli was really smooth, while I cannot vassalise Tunisia because of this modifier. I guess it's because of of Tunis' high tax base. So the solution for this is both to expand and to build temples?

  3. #23
    Colonel bleakie's Avatar
    Cities in Motion 2March of the EaglesSengokuEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Hong Kong, China
    Posts
    950
    Oops, I seem to have over-generalized the situation. When I loaded as Hungary (58 base tax), the percentages are higher. That means huge blobs will not be able to vassalize states with 10% of their tax base. I need to load a later save to see.

  4. #24
    Colonel bleakie's Avatar
    Cities in Motion 2March of the EaglesSengokuEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Hong Kong, China
    Posts
    950
    I have compiled 3 more sets of data, to reveal the rough extent of vassalization you can do, especially for huge blobs:

    1. Hungary, game start, 58 tax base.
    Country name; tax base; opinion modifier.
    Albania; 3; +30
    Connacht; 4; +30
    Naxos; 5; +30
    Munster; 6; +3
    Mecklenburg; 7; -21
    Urbino; 8; -36
    Liege; 9; -47
    Aachen; 10; -55

    2. France, a game into 1682, 857 tax base.
    Tax base; opinion modifier.
    10; +30
    20; +30
    22; +16
    24; -1
    26; -14
    29; -29
    30; -33
    32; -40

    3. France, a game into 1820, 3623 tax base.
    Tax base; opinion modifier.
    16; +30
    33; +30
    39; +30
    44; +22
    45; +17
    46; +13
    62; -33
    72; -48
    77; -53
    106; -71

  5. #25
    Nice data bleakie!
    Unless someone pop up and reveal the answer this is a very interesting math problem to figure out.
    From these numbers it certainly look like the 'break-even' point is somewhere around the square root of your tax base. I have to try more to figure out the scaling and intersect...

  6. #26
    Pieroński Chachor Makavcio's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteDivine WindHeir to the Throne500k club
    Europa Universalis IV: Pre-orderEUIV: Call to arms event

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Sari / Silesia
    Posts
    191
    Quote Originally Posted by InnocentIII View Post
    my theory is that the sooner I do something bad the sooner people can start forgiving me
    It's one of the basic Machiavelli's notion as well

  7. #27
    Colonel bleakie's Avatar
    Cities in Motion 2March of the EaglesSengokuEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Hong Kong, China
    Posts
    950
    Quote Originally Posted by anomalacaris View Post
    Nice data bleakie!
    Unless someone pop up and reveal the answer this is a very interesting math problem to figure out.
    From these numbers it certainly look like the 'break-even' point is somewhere around the square root of your tax base. I have to try more to figure out the scaling and intersect...
    It seems that the square root of tax base is the point for a -30 modifier. It matches all the 4 sets of data.

    And the break-even point is 80% of the square root of tax base.

  8. #28
    Motorcycle Rebel ArschGranate's Avatar
    Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Aalborg, Denmark
    Posts
    602
    Quote Originally Posted by anomalacaris View Post
    Nice data bleakie!
    Unless someone pop up and reveal the answer this is a very interesting math problem to figure out.
    From these numbers it certainly look like the 'break-even' point is somewhere around the square root of your tax base. I have to try more to figure out the scaling and intersect...
    This is all that is so great about the EU players. 4 minutes after an extensive data collection on the impact of tax base on diplo-vassalising is posted, someone else figures out that the square root is the probable factor.

    Great work both of you! Now, if we could just lure Kanitatlan out of retirement to do the combat math
    Gentlemen! You can't fight in here - this is the War-room!

  9. #29
    What is a resonable amount of positive modifiers you can expect to get? Because looking at those values it seems only very rich/large nations will be able to diplo-vassalize anything that isn't an OPM.

  10. #30
    Colonel bleakie's Avatar
    Cities in Motion 2March of the EaglesSengokuEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Hong Kong, China
    Posts
    950
    What is a resonable amount of positive modifiers you can expect to get? Because looking at those values it seems only very rich/large nations will be able to diplo-vassalize anything that isn't an OPM.
    Threatened/Friendly attitude +10, superiority in military +20, diplomatic reputation +1 per point, trust for single digit boost.
    I doubt you can get more than +45 without counting the tax base.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by bleakie View Post
    Threatened/Friendly attitude +10, superiority in military +20, diplomatic reputation +1 per point, trust for single digit boost.
    I doubt you can get more than +45 without counting the tax base.
    That sounds about right. I've seen trust up to +14 but it is usually a lot lower.

  12. #32
    This penalty seems excessively large in comparison to the other modifiers to vassalization, particularly at the stage where it kicks in. I'm playing a game as an almost fully formed France right now and with a base tax of over 200, I can't vassalize Lorraine, which only has 2 provinces that have 12 base tax total.

    I think either or both of the size of the modifier and the calculation for when it is applied need some adjustment. Or they need to readjust the other modifiers to compensate for it somewhat. As it stands, peaceful expansion in certain regions is nearly impossible.

  13. #33
    Colonel bleakie's Avatar
    Cities in Motion 2March of the EaglesSengokuEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Hong Kong, China
    Posts
    950
    Quote Originally Posted by abotkin View Post
    This penalty seems excessively large in comparison to the other modifiers to vassalization, particularly at the stage where it kicks in. I'm playing a game as an almost fully formed France right now and with a base tax of over 200, I can't vassalize Lorraine, which only has 2 provinces that have 12 base tax total.

    I think either or both of the size of the modifier and the calculation for when it is applied need some adjustment. Or they need to readjust the other modifiers to compensate for it somewhat. As it stands, peaceful expansion in certain regions is nearly impossible.
    If Lorraine has 2 temples, its tax base is 16 with the capital bonus. That means 256 tax base will yield a -30 modifier, which should be good enough for you to diplo-vassalize Lorraine. Try to gain a few more dozens of tax base, and the change will be quite dramatic when it comes.

  14. #34
    Corporal Brazen's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteDivine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneMajesty 2Semper FiSengokuVictoria 2
    Mount & Blade: WarbandWarlock: Master of the Arcane

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    27
    Just a note on the trust, it can actually go a lot higher. I currently have +38 trust bonus with an Orthodox Yemen holding Ethiopia & Aden. I'm not sure of the exact base taxes involved, but I hold Italy, Greece, Tunis, Tripoli, Syria with the Mamluks & Hedjaz as vassals. Sums up to -74 base tax modifier (I haven't finished temples everywhere yet either) with -10 for different religions. With +38 trust, +20 mil, +13 dip rep, +10 threatened I have +81. With either the +5 dip rep event or a change in religion they would be vassalisable.

  15. #35
    Vassal Number = 1.5 * (Vassal Base Tax)^2
    ([Vassal Number]-[Your Base Tax])/ [Vassal Number]* - 90
    Capped at 30

    For all the datapoints except 2, this fits, just pulled some numbers out of my ass, I'm too tired to do math

    3 30 58 13.5 296.6666667 30
    4 30 58 24 127.5 30
    5 30 58 37.5 49.2 30
    6 3 58 54 6.666666667 6.666666667 --doesn't fit here
    7 -21 58 73.5 -18.97959184 -18.97959184 --or here, ninja edit
    8 -36 58 96 -35.625 -35.625
    9 -47 58 121.5 -47.03703704 -47.03703704
    10 -55 58 150 -55.2 -55.2



    10 30 857 150 424.2 30
    20 30 857 600 38.55 30
    22 16 857 726 16.23966942 16.23966942
    24 -1 857 864 -0.729166667 -0.729166667
    26 -14 857 1014 -13.93491124 -13.93491124
    29 -29 857 1261.5 -28.85850178 -28.85850178
    30 -33 857 1350 -32.86666667 -32.86666667
    32 -40 857 1536 -39.78515625 -39.78515625



    16 30 3623 384 759.140625 30
    33 30 3623 1633.5 109.6143251 30
    39 30 3623 2281.5 52.91913215 30
    44 22 3623 2904 22.28305785 22.28305785
    45 17 3623 3037.5 17.34814815 17.34814815
    46 13 3623 3174 12.731569 12.731569
    62 -33 3623 5766 -33.44953174 -33.44953174
    72 -48 3623 7776 -48.06712963 -48.06712963
    77 -53 3623 8893.5 -53.33614438 -53.33614438
    106 -71 3623 16854 -70.65325739 -70.65325739

  16. #36
    Colonel
    Crusader Kings IIEuropa Universalis 3Heir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineEU3 Napoleon's Ambition
    Rome GoldVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness500k club
    Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Banana Belt of Canada
    Posts
    810
    I appreciate all this analysis. I was just wondering the same thing myself and it's great to see it worked out.

  17. #37
    First Lieutenant Pandadan's Avatar
    A Game of DwarvesCities in MotionCities in Motion 2Crusader Kings IIDeus Vult
    EU3 CompleteDivine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest Hour
    Heir to the ThroneLeviathan: WarshipsMagickaVictoria: RevolutionsSemper Fi
    Sword of the StarsSword of the Stars IIVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness
    Mount & Blade: WarbandWarlock: Master of the ArcaneMount & Blade: With Fire and SwordCK2: Holy KnightEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    209
    Quote Originally Posted by Xesttub View Post
    Vassal Number = 1.5 * (Vassal Base Tax)^2
    ([Vassal Number]-[Your Base Tax])/ [Vassal Number]* - 90
    Capped at 30
    Did you mistype/misformat the formula? The one here is pretty nonsensical and doesn't give the numbers claimed.

  18. #38
    Colonel bleakie's Avatar
    Cities in Motion 2March of the EaglesSengokuEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Hong Kong, China
    Posts
    950
    There is a simpler representation for the formula.
    Adjusted power ratio = [Your tax base] / [Target tax base]^2
    Attitude modifier = 60 * Adjusted power ratio - 90, capped at +30.

    I use Xesttub's equation as the base model, and fit the available data set for the correct parameters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brazen View Post
    I'm not sure of the exact base taxes involved
    You can check your tax base in the economy tab.
    Last edited by bleakie; 02-10-2013 at 11:07.

  19. #39
    Court Jester yarm88's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIMagickaMount & Blade: WarbandWarlock: Master of the Arcane500k club

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    gone country
    Posts
    441
    way to exploit:

    - start as Norway (4 colonists nation);
    - Sell all provinces except one to Sweden;
    - Moove your capital to America;
    - Colonize and core all America & have the biggest tax base in the world;
    - Vassalize & annex them all.
    Do you not think wot would you do if you were on the recieving end of you being god

  20. #40
    Crusader for True Inflation Emre Yigit's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIHearts of Iron IIIMarch of the EaglesVictoria 2Victoria II: Heart of Darkness
    Europa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    The City of Men's Desire
    Posts
    4,106
    Quote Originally Posted by bleakie View Post
    ... snip...
    I'm a little lost in these calculations.

    Is adjusted power ratio = [Your tax base] / [Target tax base]^2

    or is it adjusted power ratio = [Your tax base]^1/2 / [Target tax base] ?
    To every man upon this earth / Death cometh soon or late. / And how can man die better / Than facing fearful odds, / For the ashes of his fathers / And the temples of his gods...?

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts