What is the point of tax efficieny?

shivan · Jun 9, 2013

Ive already searched the forums and read trough the answers. I just find it really inconclusive. It just seems like a pretty useless techline.

I superficially understand what it does. It TE allows you to collect more tax from your pops.
I just dont see why you would want to spend time researching it. What is the difference between 100% tax slider at 50% TE and 50% slider at 100% TE?
The only times I can think it useful is in the very beginning of the game when you are strapped for cash or in very rare cases when you want to tax your POPs into rebellion.

Can someone clarify?

shakeled1 · Jun 9, 2013

It's better for end-game Laissez faire parties, where you can only tax a maximum of 50%, so if, say, you only had a tax efficiency of 40%, you'd be maxed out at 20% taxes which would likely not be enough to cover all your expenses.

Orko80 · Jun 9, 2013

It represents your efficency of your Beurocratic apperatus.

And there are hidden event's in several tech's that aren't apperent that boost you economy or have impact on your pop's in other ways like con and militancy. That require to even trigger to have specific techs researched.

As shakeled1 stated tax efficency is prety muchneeded to be able to sustain positive tax income for leszafair goverments.

Nilmerf · Jun 9, 2013

Strictly speaking it's fair enough, but depending on who you are there's usually something better than the Commerce tree to put your research into. I'm sure most people find themselves prioritizing the Culture tree. If my literacy isn't very high, I'll often find myself ignoring the Commerce techs until at least the important 1870's techs are researched.

Beagá · Jun 9, 2013

Tier 2 commerce techs are a must.

Tier 3 and more, not always but since you can have the same money with the slider at 40% instead of 50%, POPs will be able to buy more needs, which can be critical if you want to keep militancy (and emigration) in check. Tax efficiency is VERY nice for Austria and any other multicultural empire. Else good luck keeping education at 100% and still spanking Prussia and France militarly.

"Oh but I can research industrial techs"... sure, but eventually the only thing you will accomplish is massive unemployment from excessive RGO production. With militancy and emigration coming next.

Chaim Kaufmann · Jun 9, 2013

Beagá said:
..... but since you can have the same money with the slider at 40% instead of 50%, POPs will be able to buy more needs .....

This implies that tax efficiency does not affect how much the POPs pay. (In effect, that this is not a model of bureaucratic capacity to identify taxable incomes but of corruption.)

Do we know this for sure? If so, getting tax efficiency techs would valuable early as well as late, by allowing lowering rates.

Beagá · Jun 9, 2013

Almost certain it works that way, but not 100% sure

Else it wouldn´t be very worthwhile.

colinljx · Jun 9, 2013

Chaim Kaufmann said:
This implies that tax efficiency does not affect how much the POPs pay. (In effect, that this is not a model of bureaucratic capacity to identify taxable incomes but of corruption.)

Do we know this for sure? If so, getting tax efficiency techs would valuable early as well as late, by allowing lowering rates.

IIRC, Tax efficiency does affect how much the pops pay, same goes for state bureaucratic efficiency. It gives you more control over pop promotion/demotion.

Kimberly · Jun 9, 2013

As far as I'm aware, a lower tax efficiency simply means the POPs lose less money. Otherwise, the economy would suffer critical deflation seeing as everyone starts out with such low tax efficiency.

Beagá · Jun 9, 2013

Maybe. The POPs DO pay more money. It´s easy to notice that... as soon as you gain a tax efficiency tech you immediatedly begin getting more money at the same slider position.

As the name itself implies, efficiency means you´re getting more tax out of the same payment. That´s what means being efficient - doing more, with the same.

Maybe Naselus or one of the devs could explain it better.

chrism2012 · Jun 9, 2013

I'm mostly with Beaga's explanation (as usual when it comes to Austria

).

The higher your efficiency goes the more you can lower taxes,
the more pops can buy things for themselves,
the more goods are demanded,
the more your own industry and RGOs rise,
the more people are hired,
the more tax income you'll get...

...the sooner all does suddenly fall apart without knowing why.

pkderek · Jun 9, 2013

How do you guys run effective armies without high tax efficiency? I've always been curious how people get their money without cheesing like taking over a Chinese province or any equivalent.

Casiru · Jun 9, 2013

I can usually drop my tax rates down to 25% on poor/middle while taxing rich 40% at peace and 50% and war. Running a reactionary state capitalist country.
After your industry has taken off if you subsidize factories that are not doing very well you can reduce the price of the good so that other countries swap production allowing you to get a majority share of the market and able to not waste any of the production. Muscle in on most goods and you can run an army the size of the planet without excessive taxation.

Beagá · Jun 9, 2013

pkderek said:
How do you guys run effective armies without high tax efficiency? I've always been curious how people get their money without cheesing like taking over a Chinese province or any equivalent.

Simple, you don´t

not while keeping Education at 100%, and still fighting wars.

The other option for "easy" cash is getting lots of gold RGOs and rushing industrial techs. Mexico and Transvaal are the best targets, but there are others.

Comrade Chaos · Jun 10, 2013

Tax eff. does not work like that. The money that doesn't get taxed because of inefficiency goes back to the POP. Tax eff. techs are only useful if you want to tax to the max.

Cymsdale · Jun 10, 2013

Comrade Chaos said:
Tax eff. does not work like that. The money that doesn't get taxed because of inefficiency goes back to the POP. Tax eff. techs are only useful if you want to tax to the max.

Seconded. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. The quoted post is the truth.

If you are putting your tax slider somewhere other than max, then tax efficiency is not going to do anything worthwhile for you. If you have a tax slider at max and you think "I still want more money from these pops," then you want to raise your tax efficiency.

That's it, there is no magic to it.

chrism2012 · Jun 10, 2013

Comrade Chaos said:
Tax eff. does not work like that. The money that doesn't get taxed because of inefficiency goes back to the POP. Tax eff. techs are only useful if you want to tax to the max.

After some tests with Austrian coal miners this one seems to be right.

If taxes (poor) are set to 0% the total income of the miners is 85,
if taxes (poor) are set to 100% - with tax efficiency at 23% - then total income is about 65, the difference being about 23% of 85...

The amount of available money for the pops (to spend) did decrease however, so it is still influencing pop demand and therefor supply and prices.

Beagá · Jun 10, 2013

Comrade Chaos said:
Tax eff. does not work like that. The money that doesn't get taxed because of inefficiency goes back to the POP. Tax eff. techs are only useful if you want to tax to the max.

People in the PDM forum disagree with you. Can you actually prove that the POPs do pay more with each tax efficiency increase, instead of the government getting more revenue per X value paid? Because what you are essentially saying is that instead of taxing people at 100% extra tax efficiency allows you to tax them at 105, 120, 140 % etc.

Cymsdale · Jun 10, 2013

Beagá said:
People in the PDM forum disagree with you. Can you actually prove that the POPs do pay more with each tax efficiency increase, instead of the government getting more revenue per X value paid? Because what you are essentially saying is that instead of taxing people at 100% extra tax efficiency allows you to tax them at 105, 120, 140 % etc.

100% does not mean a 100% tax rate, it means taxing pops at your highest possible effiecency.

chrism2012 · Jun 10, 2013

Cymsdale said:
100% does not mean a 100% tax rate, it means taxing pops at your highest possible effiecency.

That's the misconception I originally had, that a 100% tax slider would actually "tax" all the pop's income away, leaving them none. But the effective tax % is the amount by which the pop's income will decrease.

So as long as tax slider AND tax efficiciency are not 100% some money should always remain with the pops...

What is the point of tax efficieny?

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