I thought this would only apply across religion groups, but to my shock, Tengriists and other pagans cannot intermarry. This makes me sad. It's not accurate in the least 
'Must not marry an infidel'
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Because Berber kingdoms are Sunni, which had the most restrictions against marriage with pagans. And I am not - by any means - expert, but I doubt West Africans intermarried with e.g. Sultans of Mauretania. And by the time Iberian families would hear about Mali & consider marriage, West African paganism would be reformed. IMHO that would be for the best - as it would show that intermarriage with rest of the world becomes possible when African pagans aren't just a backwater petty dukes noone heard about before.
I thought this would only apply across religion groups, but to my shock, Tengriists and other pagans cannot intermarry. This makes me sad. It's not accurate in the least
Tengri can still marry Norse, West African etc, however, Reformed Tengri cannot marry any Unreformed pagan religion. The only exception is Reformed Norse, which can marry Unreformed Norse. Because "Norse DLC," and all that.
Actually, such intermarriages happened pretty often. The Islamisation of Mali was something that happened gradually, Muslim rulers embraced local pagan traditions, and married local nobility. Also, where does Sunni "have the most restrictions against marriages with pagans?" I'm really not sure what you're basing this upon, do you have a link?
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Pretty sure they pulled it out of thin air because it sounds right. But you are correct, there was always a ton of syncretism whenever Islam and local religions collided. If anything, during the early centuries of this game, Muslims would be more likely than Catholics to marry pagans for non-political reasons.
Well, I stand corrected - as I said, I am not an expert, so I sound corrected about Mali. That is what I get for telling something about countries I don't give a damn for
Though, my intention was rather to propose some solution to 'I can't marry neighbouring catholic but I can marry Mandee' issue.[Though, to nitpick: I was not talking about „local marriages in Mali”. In 868 Mali is all pagan (at least at sovereigns levels), and there is nothing preventing marriages with any of locals, whether converted or not. It is intermarrying with Mauretania we're talking about.]
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Well, I stand corrected - as I said, I am not an expert, so I sound corrected about Mali. That is what I get for telling something about countries I don't give a damn for
No problem. ^^ But there is a problem with the 867 start that there is a lack of female courtiers, and if West African pagans were forbidden from marrying anyone else, we may see noble families dying out.
Speaking of Mali, off topic, now that technology is required to build ships, could Mali get its coastal provinces soon? It does look a little strange seeing half of Mali's provinces being in a desert, despite all the lush green over by the coast.
Why is Norse and Slavic incompatible?
Norse and Slavic *are* able to intermarry. I was referring to Reformed versions of pagan religions not being able to intermarry, the intermarry parameter was added to allow Reformed Norse to marry Norse... Seriously, it's crazy that all this could simply be solved by letting things go back to the way things were.
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There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza ...
It nerfed sillier behaviour. It could be refined, but the sillier behaviour needed nerfing.
Mauretanian sultans historically didn't marry Malian pagans, not because of any particular attitudes to paganism, but because they didn't need to send emissaries across the Sahara for a suitable bride (when any noble daughter or pretty (frequently slave...) girl from iberia to the levant would do), didn't have the internet telling them that the wadi of timbuktu's daughter was a genius grey eminence & wouldn't have cared if they did. Presumably there would have been some intermarriage at the time they were trying to rule the area, but that was fairly brief.
In practice, Muslim ruler's attitudes to intermarriage varied by time and place (and frequently they were more concerned about muslim women marrying out of the faith, than other religions marrying in).
There should probably be a sliding scale for the penalty based on how respectable the traditions of one religion appear in the eyes of the other.
Base values could be something like this:
Abrahamic religions:
-- to each other
--- to reformed pagans and Zoros
---- to unreformed pagans and Aztecs
Zoroastrians:
-- to Abrahamics
--- to reformed pagans
---- to unreformed pagans and Aztecs
reformed pagans:
- to their own unreformed version
-- to each other, to Abrahamics and Zoros
---- to other unreformed pagans and Aztecs
Aztecs:
--- to everyone else
unreformed pagans:
no penalty to anyone
Then add an extra - if the religious authority of the offering party is below 30%, subtract one if it's over 70%.
This way, the only time an always-refuse ----- opinion modifier occurs is in the case of an unreformed pagan religion with low authority. In any other situation, the AI would be able to consider other factors.
Base values could be something like this:
Abrahamic religions:
-- to each other
--- to reformed pagans and Zoros
---- to unreformed pagans and Aztecs
Zoroastrians:
-- to Abrahamics
--- to reformed pagans
---- to unreformed pagans and Aztecs
reformed pagans:
- to their own unreformed version
-- to each other, to Abrahamics and Zoros
---- to other unreformed pagans and Aztecs
Aztecs:
--- to everyone else
unreformed pagans:
no penalty to anyone
Then add an extra - if the religious authority of the offering party is below 30%, subtract one if it's over 70%.
This way, the only time an always-refuse ----- opinion modifier occurs is in the case of an unreformed pagan religion with low authority. In any other situation, the AI would be able to consider other factors.
Good ideas. But I'd give a -1 penalty to unreformed pagans instead of 0. Also zealous characters should always be a -5, cynical could maybe remove a -.
Also, Zoroastrian rulers have, more often than not, been quite tolerant towards other religions (see the Achaemenid and Sassanid Empires).
Just went through a wikipedia article about the Saqaliba : it refers to a social class formed by eastern europeans brought up in muslim rulers' courts.
According to some other sources, bringing eastern europeans was a wide-spread practice in andalusia.
So muslim-christian marriages should be allowed, at least for muslim men.
According to some other sources, bringing eastern europeans was a wide-spread practice in andalusia.
So muslim-christian marriages should be allowed, at least for muslim men.
Excellent suggestions. I always thought the respect and distaste for other religions would look exactly like that when abstracted (and how it should be in the game).
e. I'd agree, too, with suggestions regarding Zealous/Cynical and Zoroastrians in later posts below.
I'm pretty sure a religion being organized makes it less likely to marry Abrahamic religions rather than more... I'm not exactly sure the religious differences in marriages were based upon how sophisticated their infidel religion looked.
Additionally, I believe Christian-Muslim marriages were slightly rarer than marriages between Abrahamics and Pagans. Marrying pagans always meant they could convert; they are unorganised and ununited with their belief, some gods were not universally accepted, and opinions of different gods varied from person to person. See the marriages between the Lithuanians and the Christians, for example. If these beliefs became united, with an officially established pantheon, and thus no agnosticism within the religion, Christians and Muslims would refuse to marry their nonconvertible religion.
The word 'heathen' is generally used rather than 'infidel' for the pagan beliefs, infidel is used more often for the other Abrahamic faiths. Heathen implies a strong possibility to convert, whereas infidel tends to mark them as in opposition to your own faith. Muslim-Christian marriages did occur (more notably in Anatolia and Iberia,) however they were rarer than marriages between the Abrahamic religions and the 'pagan' religions.
I agree as well, it seems that the options available to the player are being more and more restricted. I'm very concerned about the direction, having a choice have consequences is one thing, completely removing the possibility is a terrible choice.
That's not, as far as I can tell, the way it worked.
Muslims are the easiest to set rules for. Muslim men, particularly nobles, would marry women of any religion. I've read many, many examples of this. So long as the children were brought up Muslim, they didn't care. On the other hand, Muslims should never marry Muslim noblewomen to non-Muslim men. Maybe it happened (almost certainly it did sometime), but I've never read of a example. On the other hand, noblemen who converted to Islam were certainly potential marriage partners for Muslim women.
Christians were similar but a bit easier going. Again, Christian men could marry anyone. (They might be a bit more picky about converting their wives than Muslim men, though.) But if you're a Christian noble marrying a Christian noble woman to a non-Christian, you should be paying a substantial prestige penalty. The AI shouldn't do it except in situations where it's getting a diplomatic marriage with a non-Christian state that's threatening it, or to an overlord. OTOH, you might occasionally get a situation where a pagan lord is willing to convert to get a Christian bride... think Vladimir of Kiev and Anna of Byzantium... in THAT case, no penalty but bonus piety! But hard to do.
The "Reformed" pagan religions are complete fantasy so you can do whatever you like with them as far as "realism" goes.
In general, pagans didn't AFAIK care about marrying outside of their religions nearly as much as the monotheistic faiths did. ("I worship Thor, one neighbour worships Frey, my wife and daughters worship Freyja, that traveling warrior-poet worships Odin - so my other neighbour worships Christ? what's one god more or less?") But I'm going to talk briefly about the pagans of Mali, who were significantly different from the northern pagans. The pagans of Mali and Ghana, as far as I can tell, basically regarded their kings as gods on Earth, something similar to Egyptian pharaohs. So suppose their king converted to Islam. That didn't make his pagan subjects think of him as a different "religion" from them. If God decides to become a Muslim (whatever that is - we're mostly talking about illiterate peasant farmers here), that's God's business. He presumably knows what he's doing and it's against YOUR religion to tell him he's wrong!
Wonder if it may be a good idea to offer or demand conversion with marriages, with a little box below the Matrilineal option. Though demanding conversion would carry a penalty, offering conversion may need to have certain restrictions (like to be cynical) or simply be almost never done by the AI. Have been wanting to see more options to change religion beyond the (arguably more gamey tactic) of educating your heir with the desired religion, even if certain restrictions may be required.
Still believe a reformed religion could have harsher restrictions than unreformed pagans for two reasons:
1. Reforming the religion implies a large amount of followers already existing.
2. A reformed religion would be have less acceptance (and less chance of being accepted) by foreign religions, due to the fact that the religion no longer takes a vague and agnostic state of worshiping.
Even if the Reformed religions are simply "what-if" content, it would be safe to say that such a reformed religion would be less tolerant of "infidels," now that other religions are not simply "worshiping different gods," they are now "worshiping false gods."
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