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Thread: Switzerland creation is wrong in eu4

  1. #21
    Here's how I rendered Switzerland in a(n in-progress) sub-mod for Death and Taxes;

    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...3&d=1354137360

    It's still not quite historically accurate; I had to merge a lot of borders together to prevent adding too many new provinces to the area. Ended up adding only three provinces in the end; Neuchatel (was Basel for a while, but I changed it once I read that Basel got chopped in half by Napoleon), Aargau (originally a lot smaller and under a different name to represent the last remnants of the Kingdom of Arles) and Valtellina (the bit of Switzerland that's now in Italy). With this layout (in 1356), only Bern and Schwyz should be Switzerland. Chur should be held by "The Leagues" (well, the first of the Three Leagues didn't really get founded until 1367, but mixing them together's the simpler way to represent the various states in the area), Valtellina and Ticino should be held by Milan, Thurgau and Aargau should be held by Austria (an obvious boon for the player; connects Briesgau with Tyrol!), Vaud should be held by Savoy and Neuchatel & Valais should be independent.

  2. #22
    Dont ask Pewt about LOOM cacra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeissRaben View Post
    Wikipedia isn't wrong on EVERYTHING. While it isn't completely reliable, most basic facts are right - like Switzerland being way smaller in 1444 than modern borders.
    maybe, but i dont think paradox, or any self respecting company will ever source something direct from thikipedia. At least i hope
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacra View Post
    maybe, but i dont think paradox, or any self respecting company will ever source something direct from thikipedia. At least i hope
    OK then let's take a look to various sources saying the same things :

    Vaud and part of Valais in Savoie until 16th century
    http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/d/D7395.php
    http://www.historyandcivilization.co...pe_in_1477.jpg
    http://www.historyandcivilization.co...Atlas_1911.jpg
    http://www.svha-vd.ch/Chronologie.14.0.html
    http://www.memo.fr/en/article.aspx?ID=REG_VAU_000
    http://icp.ge.ch/po/cliotexte/la-con...oire.1370.html
    http://icp.ge.ch/po/cliotexte/gif/su...0.couleurs.jpg
    http://icp.ge.ch/po/cliotexte/la-con...oire.1481.html

    General about swiss creation :
    http://histoire-suisse.geschichte-sc...se-resume.html
    http://www.memo.fr/en/article.aspx?ID=PAY_SUI_MOY_000
    http://www.format-prod.com/droit-etu...s-suisses.html
    http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/map.cfm?map_id=3752
    http://books.google.ch/books?id=rY0B...istory&f=false

    For the game purpose, I agree with the comment of Almron (2 above) : Swiss confederates should start in 14th century with Forest States (say Schwyz), Bern, Zurich. Then there should be a high chance to take Vaud-Valais, Tessin and GraubŁnden (Chur). As the swiss were very expansionist until they got beaten in Marignano (1515), there should be also a chance that they annex more countries, seeming they were more interested going south.

    I don't know how the game will be regarding religion and languages but historically (and very generally) :
    http://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/...igions/1011296

    Religion :
    Schwyz, Valais, Tessin went catholic
    Vaud, Bern, Zurich went protestant
    GraubŁnden being 50/50

    Languages :
    Vaud, Valais -> French (francoprovencal)
    Tessin -> Italian
    GraubŁnden -> Romansh (and german)
    Zurich, Bern -> German

    Regarding resources, there were these productions/trades, at least as I know :
    iron (mountains) : http://www.geologieportal.ch/interne...shortdesc.html
    clothes (Bern, Zurich) : http://retro.seals.ch/digbib/view?ri...&id=&id2=&id3=
    milk products, cheese (everywhere)
    wine (all west-south)

    I still hope that developpers will take this in account in the game (not to have it modded), at least the provinces that were not swiss from scratch as a whole (see maps)!

  4. #24
    If the devs don't i'll probably turn all that information you just gave me into modifying the swiss as it shouldn't be too difficult to change the missions to make them expansionist, put them in a smaller starting position. Fix resources and stuff. Regarding resources i expect a single Iron province and then the rest being wool/cloth would be the best compromise as that abstracts the iron that is present and 'could' be mined. Or perhaps an even that changes the trade good if you desire it at some point.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by levithan123 View Post
    If the devs don't i'll probably turn all that information you just gave me into modifying the swiss as it shouldn't be too difficult to change the missions to make them expansionist, put them in a smaller starting position. Fix resources and stuff. Regarding resources i expect a single Iron province and then the rest being wool/cloth would be the best compromise as that abstracts the iron that is present and 'could' be mined. Or perhaps an even that changes the trade good if you desire it at some point.
    Let's if devs will answer this thread and avoid implementing mistakes in the game

  6. #26
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    Omahgawd, those crazy Western European nationalist nitpicking their unimportant stuff all over the forum again!!1!

    Seriously, though, this looks like a worthwhile thing to fix. Svizzera deserves some accuracy. The Ticino part is especially relevant. This doesn't require much after all, just a bit of renaming and border fixing. And PDS has a certain degree of responsibilty in regard to historic accuracy, especially if they're planning to provide their stuff to schools. In Russia EU3 wouldn't qualify as an education material, since the map of Russia there is basically fictional.
    Last edited by Dragovit; 05-06-2013 at 23:56.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Closet Skeleton View Post
    Simple fact is that if Switzerland really shouldn't matter and might at well have its 2013 borders in 1444 like it does in EU3 and appears to in current builds of EUIV, why not just give Calais and Normandy to France in 1444, they don't really matter and it simplifies things. Should Germany just start with Austria in 1936 in Hearts of Iron? ...
    This is wrong on so many levels. Swiss passes, their access and control were very important during this time period. It is one of the reasons the Hapsburg dynasty tried to control the area for centuries. Swiss could have ended up controlling Milan very easily and their struggles between themselves were important on the political development front. There is a reason that the Pope has "Swiss Guards" as his security force, even to this day.

    Quote Originally Posted by spyroware1 View Post
    Switzerland has way too many provinces. ...
    I have not seen the EU4 map, but I do know that Chur was a welcome addition. I also like the non-iron, wool producing economies. I'd like to see weaving in the west though.

    ... One province should become Ticino, so that Switzerland takes its from Milan. For a historical borders compromise the Valtellina should go to Milan from game start.

    And yeah it sucks that for at least 100 years in the timeframe the Swabians Swiss were very warlike without any game reprsentation whatsoever. In the game sometimes they expand in Baden-Wurterberg (historically sound so no problem), but not without Austria snaking into them.
    This is how I felt since 2009 and if necessary I'll be working on better representation of Swiss realities in the early game. This one area, if done correctly and with attentive detail can go a long way towards plausible (both historical and ahistorical) fun games. I felt EU3 Switzerland was nothing but a time warped 19th century Napoleonic construct put in just because everyone expected to see a Switzerland there.

  8. #28
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    You know, I never expected to see a Swiss nationalist starting threads

    But seriously I approve of your ideas
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krawler View Post
    In EU1 it was a 1 province Switzerland. Remember annexing them as Spain and it felt a little weird.
    That is more realistic tbh, look how small the country is.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by LYNCHY View Post
    You know, I never expected to see a Swiss nationalist starting threads

    But seriously I approve of your ideas
    Keep in mind he is effectively asking for Switzerland to be weaker.

    I'm not even white and I agree with him
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  11. #31
    Sergeant Seb283's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Wu View Post
    Keep in mind he is effectively asking for Switzerland to be weaker.

    I'm not even white and I agree with him
    Actually I propose to stick with the history at the start of the game and let the swiss confederates annex the provinces around, as they did in reality, either by force or by allance. This would give the game a new interesting challenge by the way. If swiss would not have lost in 1515, they woud surely have tried annexing more provinces, but they should also have failed and be today even smaller.

    Lennart Steck -> current switzerland is as big as holland for instance (which I am sure has more that one province in the game), and the number of today's inhabitants is around the same as the whole Sweden. If the game should represent only provinces sizes, they would have done it as in a wargame with hexes.

  12. #32
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  13. #33
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    Attachment 82861
    Here is a concrete proposal to Paradox, if they read this thread

  14. #34
    Remember Carcosa! Fiftypence's Avatar
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    Back in my day it was just one ugly province called Helvetia

  15. #35
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    I'll probably(Assuming that I'm not beaten to the punchline by paradox/someone else, will try and remake my Alpine Improvement Mod I was working on. It was especially relevant in EU3, where they not only give Switzerland Graubunden, but also the cantons which were(As previously mentioned) in the possession of the Savoyards.

    EDIT:

    This is what I created back when I was working on my old mod. It wasn't exactly the most historically accurate, but I wanted to create the least amount of tags possible. Not to mention that I didn't want to draw new provinces.

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  16. #36
    Dont ask Pewt about LOOM cacra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seb283 View Post
    .
    now then, was that so hard!? :P
    I contend that we are the first race in the world, and that the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race...If there be a God, I think that what he would like me to do is paint as much of the map of Africa British Red as possible - Cecil Rhodes.


    "Democritusparadise": Cacra is a nation wrecker in the Iwanow league.....he won't peace despite total defeat and will insist on WP

  17. #37
    Sergeant Seb283's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firehound15 View Post
    I'll probably(Assuming that I'm not beaten to the punchline by paradox/someone else, will try and remake my Alpine Improvement Mod I was working on. It was especially relevant in EU3, where they not only give Switzerland Graubunden, but also the cantons which were(As previously mentioned) in the possession of the Savoyards.

    EDIT:

    This is what I created back when I was working on my old mod. It wasn't exactly the most historically accurate, but I wanted to create the least amount of tags possible. Not to mention that I didn't want to draw new provinces.

    It looks nice!

    As previously said, I would replace Fribourg by "Vaud" and add Ticino, as it was a major annexion, allowing a bridgehead to the plain of Po through the Alps.

    Even though the swiss confederates would start with a smaller "country" (it was actually more as an alliance of long term rebels against the holy empire), they should be strong enough to beat some other countries around and thus gain some more provinces, like :
    Burgundy wars (1474-1477), where swiss defeated Charles the bold until his homeland in Lorraine, and occupied Vaud (they could have stayed in the region of Jura at least): http://medieval2.heavengames.com/m2t...er/index.shtml
    Ticino annexion (1512), that they occuped in reality by steps (it looks that they aimed to gain more territories in the south) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transal...ss_Confederacy
    Swabian war (1499), that finalized the swiss freedom to the empire : http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictiona...an+War+of+1499
    .. and the main defeat, in Marignano, where swiss had to retreat after an heroic fight and numerical disadvantage : http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...e-of-Marignano

    and also invite in their alliance other provinces, like the "Ligen" of "Chur" in the game or Valais (actually eastern, but lets simplify with "Wallis" :
    "Chur" formally joined the swiss alliance in 1496 (again to simplify) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_L...of_the_leagues
    "Wallis" allied with swiss from 1475 (I could not find other than wiki in english) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_L...of_the_leagues

    In other words, it is sure that the current borders could have been different if some battles would have been won/lost, which is the real interest of this game series. I dont know how this can be integrated through the eu4 game mechanisms, but I know that in eu3, this part of european history was already so over-simplified that it did not represent anything real, which is a shame for a game pretending re-playing history.

  18. #38
    It's sadly probably too late to make the changes as the game is probably done by now, but I definitely second seb283's proposition, starting in 1444 with modern days switzerland is quite the immersion breaker, I mean half of switzerland was built during EUIV's time frame, and we're totally missing it out : /

  19. #39
    Sergeant Seb283's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SketchingDays View Post
    It's sadly probably too late to make the changes as the game is probably done by now, but I definitely second seb283's proposition, starting in 1444 with modern days switzerland is quite the immersion breaker, I mean half of switzerland was built during EUIV's time frame, and we're totally missing it out : /
    At least, to give the provinces to their real owners in 1440 and make swiss strong enough to be able capturing what they actually did, it is not too late. This looks like minor changes, isn't it Paradox?

  20. #40
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    Any chance to get a feedback from Paradox, or is this discussion vain?

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