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Thread: [31893/11685 Feedback] The Armour rebalance thread

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by cheech View Post
    Noone will use weapons like poleaxes and warhammers if armours are so easily pierced by any old thing.

    I agree Helmets, especially heavy ones, need to do more. Getting a headshot with a non-blunt sidearm should not be so rewarding. Battleaxes should need to use their spike (with smaller hitbox) to take on plate.
    But heavy armor are NOT pierced with any old things : Helmets are
    [LCF] Sire Trinkof

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by SHoGUN_ View Post
    Slashes of sword to plate go through with little to no effort with the right blade. The right blade should only allow stabbing plate more effective, or heavy swings into the joints where it's at its weakest (which could possibly add some very small blunt damage if they added that). Light blades such as battleaxe, 1her bill and swords (not heavy axe blades) should have a real hard time getting through armour, and do so only with some heavy force, as plate is already so disadvantaged due to speed. Not a huge buff to armour, just slightly more. I believe damage once pierced through armour should do decent damage also.

    Most arrows and some xbows (depending on bolt type) should do little to no damage when hitting plate. I have been killed by a spamming elm bow while wearing full plate armour including helmet. Even with armour piercing arrows they should not go through unless held down to the max, and even then they should only do low damage. Fire should have zero affect against plate wearers UNLESS it hits the bare skin. Also, momentum is so hard to gain in heavy (understandably) so in turn momentum should be much harder to lose.



    It should be, it's not atm.



    This is also a good idea for both xbow and bow on top of making it much harder to pierce with the bow.

    I don't think many players want armour to go back to being OP, and I like the slower movement, but it still needs some balancing out, and that speed reduction does call for some movement balances when being hit by arrows or blades.
    As for slashes of sword going throught plate : Wrong, -> Slashes of : "English two handed Imperial convex/Hollow grind + Toledo steel" are hitting plate, nothing more

    Problem is THIS sword, nothingelse.

    More For having doing it : Only a fully charged blow of a "good customized and fragile sword" can hit throught plate, and is dealing an average 20 damages, problem again is not the plate, it the the helmet : Bascinet for example, have an "open area" under the face visor, this is way you can be decapitated by swords, not because of plate
    Swords dealing 10-20 damages seems legit, compared to the 60-70 any other weapon can do

    Again : problem is not plate, Problem is english sword + Helmet issues -> try to use frogmouth or armet, and you will feel the difference a lot
    [LCF] Sire Trinkof

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by trinkof View Post
    As for slashes of sword going throught plate : Wrong, -> Slashes of : "English two handed Imperial convex/Hollow grind + Toledo steel" are hitting plate, nothing more

    Problem is THIS sword, nothingelse.

    More For having doing it : Only a fully charged blow of a "good customized and fragile sword" can hit throught plate, and is dealing an average 20 damages, problem again is not the plate, it the the helmet : Bascinet for example, have an "open area" under the face visor, this is way you can be decapitated by swords, not because of plate
    Swords dealing 10-20 damages seems legit, compared to the 60-70 any other weapon can do

    Again : problem is not plate, Problem is english sword + Helmet issues -> try to use frogmouth or armet, and you will feel the difference a lot
    Agree, I don't see an issue with sword damage on plate, you have to build it special for plate and you still only do minimal damage through slashing, you have to stab.

    For bow, armor piercing should go through armor! Agree that if under pulled on the large bows or not fully pulled on the smaller bows they should have a large reduction.

  4. #44
    If armor protects more against non-blunt weapons it won't matter if blunt perform poorly against light armor, they will be the best weapons for anti-armor and that's what you'd use them for. A good way to balance maces finally.
    Last edited by Draulius; 07-05-2013 at 21:12.

  5. #45
    Field Marshal cheech's Avatar
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    Something like this roughly,

    Swords should be best vs light, good vs medium and sub-optimal vs plate
    Axes should be best vs medium, good vs light and plate
    Blunt weapons should be best against plate, good vs medium, sub-optimal vs light

    Using the wrong weapon should be punished more harshly than it is now. You do after all have the sidearm. A french falshion should be great vs light and medium but would it be so bad to draw a mace vs heavy?
    War of the Roses
    - The bill
    - the perfectly balanced weapon
    - Biggest WOTR wish - If both damage and deflection was scaled based on which point in the attack animation you are at when contact is made. This would represent clips and lesser blows that armour was especially effective at negating.
    - Most realistic WOTR wish - Increase deflection on heavy armour, especially against ranged
    - Balance - Nerf the headmans axe speed and increase miss/parry penalty slightly, peasant polearm overhead shouldnt instakill, reduce galo axe stab slightly, boost all polearms damage slightly and lucerne swing speed slightly - subtle only[*]


    Me and my people have an understanding. They say what they want and i do what i want
    Fredrik the Great


    "Video games don't affect us, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music."

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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by cheech View Post
    Something like this roughly,

    Swords should be best vs light, good vs medium and sub-optimal vs plate
    Axes should be best vs medium, good vs light and plate
    Blunt weapons should be best against plate, good vs medium, sub-optimal vs light

    Using the wrong weapon should be punished more harshly than it is now. You do after all have the sidearm. A french falshion should be great vs light and medium but would it be so bad to draw a mace vs heavy?
    Agreed, in ideal world it should be like this, problem is weapon have "base damages" versus anything, the only difference is how they "pierce" armor.
    For a system like this to work, well base damage of weapon should be different, depending on what they are hitting, and sadly, I think that is impossible

    As now :

    -Sword are best against light, and bad against plate, if we only look damages (other weapon deals far more damages.) For sword, problem is speed stabing, nothing to do with damages, and again problem is "paper helmet" with headshot bonus

    -Pierce : they are already average on anything, exept when they have the headshot bonus, and as they are average armor penetration / average damage, they absolutly rOOxx against helmets -> don't see how to tweak it without reworking again all the damage mechanics

    -Blunt : they are good against plate, but as they ignore armor, if you buff damages, well they are just absolutly OP, because they also ignore medium and light value of armor.

    In any way, from what I remember, from a previous update, developers wish to keep a simple system : "you should be able to defend against anything with anything", because it was not the case before, and that lead the game in previous versions to HUGE unbalance
    [LCF] Sire Trinkof

  7. #47
    Field Marshal cheech's Avatar
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    -Sword are best against light, and bad against plate, if we only look damages (other weapon deals far more damages.) For sword, problem is speed stabing, nothing to do with damages, and again problem is "paper helmet" with headshot bonus
    They should need charge to pierce helm or plate. As you say, helm is too weak. 1 shot and you bleed often, two shots and you dead. You should only be punished this bad if they hit the face. Sword stabs to the head are easy as hell to do and have much too high reward for effort.

    -Pierce : they are already average on anything, exept when they have the headshot bonus, and as they are average armor penetration / average damage, they absolutly rOOxx against helmets -> don't see how to tweak it without reworking again all the damage mechanics
    You dont need to rework all dammage. Just increase armours protection against it. If piercing isnt dealt with then the stab fest will only get worse.

    -Blunt : they are good against plate, but as they ignore armor, if you buff damages, well they are just absolutly OP, because they also ignore medium and light value of armor.
    As per my OP, blunt is just fine as it is so we agree.
    War of the Roses
    - The bill
    - the perfectly balanced weapon
    - Biggest WOTR wish - If both damage and deflection was scaled based on which point in the attack animation you are at when contact is made. This would represent clips and lesser blows that armour was especially effective at negating.
    - Most realistic WOTR wish - Increase deflection on heavy armour, especially against ranged
    - Balance - Nerf the headmans axe speed and increase miss/parry penalty slightly, peasant polearm overhead shouldnt instakill, reduce galo axe stab slightly, boost all polearms damage slightly and lucerne swing speed slightly - subtle only[*]


    Me and my people have an understanding. They say what they want and i do what i want
    Fredrik the Great


    "Video games don't affect us, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music."

    ICQ 446554412

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by cheech View Post
    You dont need to rework all dammage. Just increase armours protection against it. If piercing isnt dealt with then the stab fest will only get worse.
    Again we agree : but not armor, just heavy helmet pierce against the torso / stomach etc... is quite weak

    Example : pierce side of battle axe 20 damage on stomach imperial convex, fully charged / 65 + on helmet. Problem is helmets, and maybe not helmet, maybe just the damage multiplicator for headshot, it could be 1.7 or 1.8 instead of 2, this could tweak in the good way things

    As for plate wich is the main subject : you cannot kill a plate without touching the head, or he can get to you. If you only manage to get torso, he will probably have the upperhand when closing to "contact"

    EDIT : sorry, you can kill a plate without it : just use the F****** Easter spear !
    Last edited by trinkof; 07-05-2013 at 21:27.
    [LCF] Sire Trinkof

  9. #49
    Field Marshal cheech's Avatar
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    You make a good point but I would be cautious about changing the multiplyer. Bare skin face shots should be just as bad as they are.

    I think the best approach is to simply buff all helms a lot vs cutting + piercing and leave blunt as is.

    Cocky dudes without helmets should be punished. Noone in their right mind would enter a battlefield without one.
    War of the Roses
    - The bill
    - the perfectly balanced weapon
    - Biggest WOTR wish - If both damage and deflection was scaled based on which point in the attack animation you are at when contact is made. This would represent clips and lesser blows that armour was especially effective at negating.
    - Most realistic WOTR wish - Increase deflection on heavy armour, especially against ranged
    - Balance - Nerf the headmans axe speed and increase miss/parry penalty slightly, peasant polearm overhead shouldnt instakill, reduce galo axe stab slightly, boost all polearms damage slightly and lucerne swing speed slightly - subtle only[*]


    Me and my people have an understanding. They say what they want and i do what i want
    Fredrik the Great


    "Video games don't affect us, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music."

    ICQ 446554412

  10. #50
    I hope we'll see an armor buff in the next beta update. It's a shame armor pretty much does nothing until you start using the ones with around 3/4 the encumbrance bar which is damn heavy.
    Last edited by Draulius; 07-05-2013 at 23:04.

  11. #51
    Lt. General IcEye's Avatar
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    I think having the same damage type for stabs - no matter how broad the blade is - and for piercing spikes on weapons is a fundamental flaw.
    Why should the spike on the battle-axe (which is forged for piercing armour, though it might be a little too powerful now but that is another topic) suffer because the stab on the scottish sword does too much damage?
    I think this could be easier - and more realistically - balanced if blade/point geometry would come into play.
    The Castillion sword has a short, stiff blade with an extremely strong point, this is good for finding gaps in armour and stabbing through them but won't be as powerful against unarmoured opponents because a very pointy spike creates a smaller hole in flesh than a broad blade.
    This can't be recreated accurately if both weapons deal the same kind of damage (and thereby pierce armour to the same degree) and only differ in their damage output. It would also help to differentiate the variety of two-handed swords more, the Castillion Longsword and the Schongauer? Well those have fine points against armour. The Scottish Sword and the Falcion? Not so much.

    However while such a system could be easier balanced once in place, adding it would be a lot of work unless the stabs of broad blades is simply turned into slashing damage (which would incidentally solve a lot of the whole armour debate, as fat blades would be much more likely to glance off armour and choosing the right blade for the right foe would actually matter).
    I mean the spikes on the back of both the Pronged and the Spiked Bill dealt slashing damage for ages and were pretty useless due to that, so why not the broad bladed swords or spears.
    If it was me in charge, we'd be done by now.

  12. #52
    Field Marshal cheech's Avatar
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    Ice, you are correct in what you say but this would require a crap load of work. Not going to happen this beta.

    I spend a lot of my time blocking down. Overhead is barely used.

    Stab stab stab ...

    PS battle azxe is crazy - cut my head off waring armet, him using blade side ...
    War of the Roses
    - The bill
    - the perfectly balanced weapon
    - Biggest WOTR wish - If both damage and deflection was scaled based on which point in the attack animation you are at when contact is made. This would represent clips and lesser blows that armour was especially effective at negating.
    - Most realistic WOTR wish - Increase deflection on heavy armour, especially against ranged
    - Balance - Nerf the headmans axe speed and increase miss/parry penalty slightly, peasant polearm overhead shouldnt instakill, reduce galo axe stab slightly, boost all polearms damage slightly and lucerne swing speed slightly - subtle only[*]


    Me and my people have an understanding. They say what they want and i do what i want
    Fredrik the Great


    "Video games don't affect us, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music."

    ICQ 446554412

  13. #53
    Captain SHoGUN_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheech View Post
    PS battle azxe is crazy - cut my head off waring armet, him using blade side ...
    Give me a battle-axe and I could take a head off with it

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by trinkof View Post
    Again we agree : but not armor, just heavy helmet pierce against the torso / stomach etc... is quite weak

    Example : pierce side of battle axe 20 damage on stomach imperial convex, fully charged / 65 + on helmet. Problem is helmets, and maybe not helmet, maybe just the damage multiplicator for headshot, it could be 1.7 or 1.8 instead of 2, this could tweak in the good way things

    As for plate wich is the main subject : you cannot kill a plate without touching the head, or he can get to you. If you only manage to get torso, he will probably have the upperhand when closing to "contact"

    EDIT : sorry, you can kill a plate without it : just use the F****** Easter spear !

    What you've been describing isn't due helmets being shoddy, it's that head strikes have, and have always had, a damage modifier. Just like lower torso / legs take less damage from swings than the upper chest. Heavy helmets on the plate typically have very good resistances against slashing, but as plate they don't have any against blunt, and a low resist against piercing. Most helmets have weak spots though, neck protection, afaik doesn't reduce the damage against that area, but changes the damage type - as you don't get decapped as much. This is why with a Bascinet with a clappvisor you can get red damage, because you can hit the chin in the gap between the visor and coif. People tend to forget there are some extremely small hitboxes in this game which give great opportunities for extra damage. Another example is the back / sides of a bevor. You can still get decaps since the bevor does not go the whole way around.

    The question is whether head damage should be buffed or nerfed. IMO they should not because realistically, any blow with enough force behind it to the head will make a huge mess of you, regardless of wearing armour or not. A fractured skull can, and generally does, prove fatal. Also, afaik, different weapon's attacks have their own penetration chance vs the armour resists and when the armour resists > weapon penetration they bounce.

    The difference between armour in the early game and now, is that before when plate had a massive bounce % chance, everyone used plate, and everyone, everyone cried that their swords couldn't penetrate on the side slash against plate and it was OP. The majority of people weren't clever enough to carry an opposing damage type weapon on their loadouts and actively use them depending on the fight. I for one think it should come back with more encumbrance, as plate right now doesn't really outweigh the disadvantages to slower footwork. Plate is practically a damage resistance buff now, rather than a passive defence that actively stopped stray blows.

    As for you saying you can't kill plate without hitting the head, a pollaxe with just imperial will hit for 54 blunt on the torso. I see no problem here. 2 hits, one kill. Plate still has a good damage resist against plate, but it doesn't stop wild sword swings like it should.


    TLDR: Buff plate bounce resist vs slashing.
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  15. #55
    Lt. General IcEye's Avatar
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    Bevors and coifs do absolutely nothing. No damage protection, no changes in damage type, no protection against decapitation - or let's rather say instakills - on the neck.
    The only reason you lose your head less when wearing the coif - or the hood for that matter - is that said item fixes the head to the torso. For all we know the head does get cut off but just stays loose within the coif or hood.

    People in the early game complained about swords being too weak not because they didn't know better (as in which weapons would be better against armour) but because they don't care. A game with knights and swords are next to useless? An outrage.

    The problem with the Headhitbox - and all the others for that matter - is that the modifier is applied before the armour is as far as I know. So you get uncharged hits to the head that might not even penetrate armour (even the single handed axes can be deflected though less often than swords) but due to the multiplied damage on head-hits it not only pierces plate helmets but deals massive damage in the process.
    If it was me in charge, we'd be done by now.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcEye View Post
    Bevors and coifs do absolutely nothing. No damage protection, no changes in damage type, no protection against decapitation - or let's rather say instakills - on the neck.
    The only reason you lose your head less when wearing the coif - or the hood for that matter - is that said item fixes the head to the torso. For all we know the head does get cut off but just stays loose within the coif or hood.
    And this needs to change. Period.

    @Shogun
    No, you wouldn't, not if the neck/head is armoured.
    - What can change the nature of a man?

  17. #57
    Field Marshal cheech's Avatar
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    Stabing to the face with a crappy little sword is easier that hitting the body with a polearm but more rewarding. All these fancy hitboxes dont mean crap when you can drag your stab through 3-4 of them.

    And you you couldnt cut someone head off with a battleaxe in will armet with bevor - no chance

    Buff plate bounce resist vs slashing.
    This will change literally nothing. Plate would remain useless as I can just stab drag a couple of times with my sword and they will drop like a big metal zombie.
    War of the Roses
    - The bill
    - the perfectly balanced weapon
    - Biggest WOTR wish - If both damage and deflection was scaled based on which point in the attack animation you are at when contact is made. This would represent clips and lesser blows that armour was especially effective at negating.
    - Most realistic WOTR wish - Increase deflection on heavy armour, especially against ranged
    - Balance - Nerf the headmans axe speed and increase miss/parry penalty slightly, peasant polearm overhead shouldnt instakill, reduce galo axe stab slightly, boost all polearms damage slightly and lucerne swing speed slightly - subtle only[*]


    Me and my people have an understanding. They say what they want and i do what i want
    Fredrik the Great


    "Video games don't affect us, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music."

    ICQ 446554412

  18. #58
    Captain SHoGUN_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheech View Post
    Stabing to the face with a crappy little sword is easier that hitting the body with a polearm but more rewarding. All these fancy hitboxes dont mean crap when you can drag your stab through 3-4 of them.

    And you you couldnt cut someone head off with a battleaxe in will armet with bevor - no chance



    This will change literally nothing. Plate would remain useless as I can just stab drag a couple of times with my sword and they will drop like a big metal zombie.
    There's a weak spot at the neck wearing just an armet. No bevor was mentioned lol. A sharp enough heavy blade could take a head off.

    On a serious note; it would be good to know the extra encumberance from bevors and face covers. Also add actual defensive qualities to then.
    Last edited by SHoGUN_; 08-05-2013 at 11:09.

  19. #59
    I think something that needs to be looked at is the max speed players with light encumbrance have. I understand making plate move slower, but light builds move faster than was possible before. In terms of weapon handling I see this as the main cause of sword thrusts being overpowered, not the base speed of the weapons themselves.

    Also, much more than the english sword can slash through plate. The Flemish Greatsword also slashes through plate quite easily, and I have seen the French Falchion do so as well.

  20. #60
    Field Marshal cheech's Avatar
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    but light builds move faster than was possible before
    A few people have said that although it wasnt in the patch notes. Devs should confirm.

    I certainly dont think this is the only reason for swords being a problem though. Clearly they own everything right now, whatever armour each side is using. Its not just speed but dammage against heavy medium that makes them this way.
    War of the Roses
    - The bill
    - the perfectly balanced weapon
    - Biggest WOTR wish - If both damage and deflection was scaled based on which point in the attack animation you are at when contact is made. This would represent clips and lesser blows that armour was especially effective at negating.
    - Most realistic WOTR wish - Increase deflection on heavy armour, especially against ranged
    - Balance - Nerf the headmans axe speed and increase miss/parry penalty slightly, peasant polearm overhead shouldnt instakill, reduce galo axe stab slightly, boost all polearms damage slightly and lucerne swing speed slightly - subtle only[*]


    Me and my people have an understanding. They say what they want and i do what i want
    Fredrik the Great


    "Video games don't affect us, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music."

    ICQ 446554412

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