+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 177

Thread: Europa Universalis IV Developer diary 19 – War has never been so much fun...

  1. #1
    Johan's Home Account Paradox Dev Team Balor's Avatar
    Europa Universalis 3Divine WindEU3 Napoleon's Ambition

    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    3,932

    Europa Universalis IV Developer diary 19 – War has never been so much fun...

    Welcome to another EU4 Development Diary. We did not have one last week, as Besuchov, King and I were in Iceland showing our games to the press, and drinking beer.

    Now it’s time to focus on the changes we’ve made to land combat. There will be a lot of fighting and many countries won’t go fifty years without beating on their neighbors, so it’s important to know what is different.

    First of all, battles in EU3 were not really fun enough, for us. You either ran into ping-pong situations, chasing an army you could not destroy from one province to the next, or the war was decided in one battle which meant a lot of idle shifting armies from city to city.

    We wanted to get a better flow of war, and, importantly, could get decisive battles that gave you strategic advantages to be able to siege down territory you want. Over a long period of testing and experimentation, we think we have now balanced combat to be both fun and plausible.

    Shattering of Armies
    First of all, armies can shatter. If they lose a battle while having low enough morale to be disorganized, they will be forced to retreat to a safer province much further away than just one over – it could be two or three provinces from where the battle was fought. They will usually retreat to one with a high base tax value, forts, and no adjacent enemies. While retreating, the army moves slightly faster, so it will not be overrun, and it has a chance of recovery.

    What this means is that if you crush but don’t destroy an enemy army, you still have a period where you can maneuver and besiege provinces, positioning your main army to be ready, in case your enemy does recover. Of course, there is always the possibility of catching shattered armies and eliminating them, but that requires some skillful maneuvering, as well as numerical superiority and some good fortune.



    Disorganization
    Even if you win a battle, your army may become disorganized. A unit that has its morale drop below a certain threshold is flagged as disorganized, which is indicated by a small flame next to its morale bar on the map and interface. A disorganized army is unable to start moving until its morale has recovered to a certain point. With the much slower recovery of morale in EU4, this means that an army may be stuck in a province for a while before being able to continue if there was a close enough battle.



    Combat Interface
    EU3 introduced a complex combat simulation with over sixty different positions for units at each side, which possibilities of units moving about and firing at their flanks, and covering holes in the line, and for reserves to enter the combat. The combat system was not as transparent to the player though, and there are actually quite a lot of the players who think its about just numbers, modifiers and dice-rolls. We have now made the interface more obvious, you can now see which regiment is fighting which, and who is moving where.



    Combat Width
    All combats in EU3 had the same possible max-width. This is no longer the case in EU4. Now you start with a much lower base combat width, which increases as you advance in military technology, allowing you to use more soldiers effectively at once. Terrain impacts the width of combat rather dramatically, so a small army can hold up a large one if they get lucky and catch them in the mountains.



    Flanking Rules
    In EU3, infantry could attack units in front of them, and directly to their sides, while cavalry had larger range. Now this has been expanded: a unit’s effective range depends on how many troops there are in that regiment. If you have 75% or more troops, you fight at full range, if between 50 and 75%, you fight at 50% maneuver range, and between 25% and 50% strength you can do 25% of your maneuver. This is always rounded down, so a regular infantry either have 0 or 1 range possible. However, there are technologies which increase your units’ range as the game progresses.

    Supply Limits & Attrition
    We have slightly increased the supply limits, and making the difference between safe and hostile territory not as drastic as in early Europa Universalis games. This makes it more possible to fight offensive wars without losing 90% of your army to attrition. Speaking of attrition, we also made a very important change to this central mechanic. Previously, if you were 2,000 men above a province’s supply limit, you gained 2% attrition no matter the size of your stack. Now the attrition you suffer depends on the size of your army compared to supply limit. You get 10% attrition if you have double the supply limit, 20% attrition if you got triple it, etc.

    Manpower
    Manpower is now a more precious resource, but with the other changes we have made, not necessarily prone to a total collapse. Once you’ve exhausted your manpower pool, it takes about ten years to recover fully, unless you have ideas that increase this recovery rate. Earlier in the game, you may find it useful to rely on large mercenary armies to preserve your manpower, since a destructive early war could leave you at the mercy of predatory neighbors.

    Reinforcement Changes
    Armies are now slightly slower to reinforce, and reinforcement in foreign territory more greatly depends on the maneuver rating of an attached leader. This together with different supply limits means that armies will not be drained as much of manpower.

    Maintenance Cost Increases
    BUT, reinforcing your armies as they take casualties from combat and attrition is now extremely costly. Every unit at war that needs to reinforce will cost you double the normal maintenance on top of everything else. This means that when you are at war, and you are fighting a lot of deadly battles, you run the risk of severe debt unless you keep a huge warchest. The hope is that this will give players an incentive to keep some wars more limited in scope, increase the utility of loans for the player and raise the specter of bankruptcy, a threat to many nations that overtaxed themselves militarily.


    We have tested this for months now in both singleplayer and multiplayer, and we feel extremely happy with the results, and this is probably the best combat and war system we've done, yet.

    And enjoy the Europa Universalis IV: World Map Trailer!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	shattered.PNG‎
Views:	30399
Size:	72.2 KB
ID:	73338   Click image for larger version

Name:	combat_interface.PNG‎
Views:	32054
Size:	569.0 KB
ID:	73339   Click image for larger version

Name:	combat_width.PNG‎
Views:	28974
Size:	115.6 KB
ID:	73340   Click image for larger version

Name:	disorganised.PNG‎
Views:	29272
Size:	77.8 KB
ID:	73341  
    Last edited by Regina; 11-02-2013 at 10:25.

  2. #2
    First Lieutenant benkern's Avatar
    Crusader Kings II

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Fort Benkern, London
    Posts
    279
    I'm eager to get to grips with this and other features. Sounds interesting. Will there be a playable demo before full release?
    The Imperial Republic of Shireroth
    A nifty feudal state simulation where small clods of dirt and filth merge into something great!

  3. #3
    Private EleveN's Avatar
    Divine WindHeir to the ThroneEUIV: Call to arms event

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Lithuania, Vilnius
    Posts
    12
    Im eager in playing this now. I really look forward to this.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal No idea's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteDivine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    HOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneMarch of the EaglesSemper FiVictoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessMount & Blade: Warband500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Somewhere around the Universe...
    Posts
    2,916
    Good changes in general terms, even if they seem minor I think they are going to change things a lot.

    Anyway, I read that, over time, comabt width is going to be INCREASED (thanks to tech advance). That basically means that numbers will be more important the more we get near the finish of the game. Earlier in the game numbers will be less important. Early in the game it will be mroe difficult to defeat an army in a few days. Later it will be easier (thanks to increased combat width you΄ll be able to use more units in actual combat, not only as reserves, so numbers will mean more than in earlier years). Why this change? it΄s ALL THE CONTRARY than the Victoria II system, where combat width is REDUCED with tech.

  5. #5
    General Fawr's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEuropa Universalis 3EU3 CompleteDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneVictoria 2500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    2,421
    They all sound good changes. I'm particually keen on the attrition changes.

    Will there still be no attrition in provinces with less troops than the supply limit? Thats one of the contributing factors to ahistorically early european conquest in tropical zones (historically attrition rates for military units in the west indies were huge)?

    Also will the supply numbers be lower a long way from home (eg on the wrong side of the Atlantic)?

  6. #6
    On Probation thrashing mad's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Polska
    Posts
    2,603
    Not revolutionary, but very promising changes.

    Is that reference to Cannon Fodder in the title?

  7. #7
    Johan's Home Account Paradox Dev Team Balor's Avatar
    Europa Universalis 3Divine WindEU3 Napoleon's Ambition

    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    3,932
    Quote Originally Posted by thrashing mad View Post
    Not revolutionary, but very promising changes.

    Is that reference to Cannon Fodder in the title?
    Yep. One of the best games ever made...

  8. #8
    Sounds solid. Evolutionary rather than revolutionary, but not in a bad way. If anything, I'm quite wary of most revolutionary changes we've got so far and quite fond of the more prudent improvements.

    High cost for replacements is working well in CK2 with retinues, I think that's an especially good system; makes you value your soldiers lives more.

  9. #9
    Johan's Home Account Paradox Dev Team Balor's Avatar
    Europa Universalis 3Divine WindEU3 Napoleon's Ambition

    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    3,932
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawr View Post
    They all sound good changes. I'm particually keen on the attrition changes.

    Will there still be no attrition in provinces with less troops than the supply limit? Thats one of the contributing factors to ahistorically early european conquest in tropical zones (historically attrition rates for military units in the west indies were huge)?

    Also will the supply numbers be lower a long way from home (eg on the wrong side of the Atlantic)?
    There are various things that increase minimum attrition no matter what. A nation with full defensive ideas inflict 1% attrition on all hostile armies on its territory.

  10. #10
    Lt. General Andy_Dandy's Avatar
    Hearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIEuropa Universalis: ChroniclesHearts of Iron IIIEuropa Universalis III: In Nomine
    EU3 Napoleon's AmbitionRome GoldRome: Vae VictisEU Rome Collectors EditionEU3 Collectors Edition
    500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    The Kingdom of Norway
    Posts
    1,689
    Blog Entries
    1
    Wow, I'm impressed how you creatively have found solutions giving both more realism and better gameplay combined. Good work indeed.
    Last edited by Andy_Dandy; 08-02-2013 at 11:29.

  11. #11
    First Lieutenant
    Crusader Kings IIEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    273
    Great changes, especially like Shattering/Disorganization and combat width with terrain modifier.

    The reason combat width in Victoria reduced with tech was to simulate trench warfare. In EU-timeframe the rise of gunpowder makes for longer and thinner front lines and professional armies made battles a lot bloodier, hence a higher combat width.

  12. #12
    A question about shattering vs desorganization; wouldn't this mean that sometimes, to finish off an enemy stack, its best to break engagement just before they shatter from morale loss, therefore 'stunning' the unit into place so you can finish it off with another stack, instead of letting it flee back three provinces at stims speed?

  13. #13
    a bug Demi Moderator Letar's Avatar
    For the MotherlandVictoria II: Heart of DarknessHearts of Iron: The Card GameCK2: Holy KnightEU Rome Collectors Edition
    EU3 Collectors EditionEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Helsinki
    Posts
    1,946
    Regarding flanking rules, are the percentages relative to the maximum regiment strength?
    When I use this color, I have my moderator hat on. Forum User Agreement and Rules

  14. #14
    General garudamon11's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteDivine WindHeir to the ThroneMarch of the Eagles
    SengokuVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessMount & Blade: Warband
    Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Sharjah, UAE
    Posts
    1,858
    Fascinating, wars are going to have more strategic depth and this new system does sound like a lot of fun!

  15. #15
    Colonel Kaarle XII's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDeus VultEuropa Universalis 3EU3 CompleteDivine Wind
    For the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In Nomine
    EU3 Napoleon's AmbitionEuropa Universalis: RomeSemper FiSengokuSword of the Stars
    Victoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedRise of PrussiaCK2: Holy Knight500k club

    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Helsinki
    Posts
    1,109
    You guys should drink less beer and publish more dev diaries!

    Good job on improving the battles.

  16. #16
    Your Friendly Dictator Grubnessul's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDeus VultDiplomacyDivine WindHeir to the Throne
    Europa Universalis III: In NomineMagickaMajesty 2EU3 Napoleon's AmbitionEuropa Universalis: Rome
    Sword of the StarsVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedRome: Vae VictisMount & Blade: Warband
    Warlock: Master of the ArcaneMount & Blade: With Fire and SwordEU3 Collectors Edition500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order
    EUIV: Call to arms event

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Banished to the 8th circle of Hell after mentioning rule 34 to Canonized
    Posts
    5,538
    Interesting changes. I expected a move to the CKII/MotE combat system. I just hope things won't get over complicated and stays intuitive, but it looks like a change for the better!
    "History is form of cybersex!"
    EvilSanta
    "Please, call me Grubby"
    - General Schenkhuizen, Timeslines: What if Spain failed to control the world?
    There might be Vikings out there! Or: How I accidentally traded my wife for a halibut (pining for the Fjords since I lost my USB and the save game)

    Patriotism leads to nationalism, nationalism leads to racism, racism leads to suffering...

  17. #17
    Imperial Vicar of the HRE Ruwaard's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDeus VultCK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV
    Warlock 2: The ExiledEUIV: Wealth of NationsEUIV: Conquest of ParadiseEUIV: Res PublicaCrusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
    Crusader Kings II: Sword of IslamCrusader Kings II: The RepublicCrusader Kings II: The Old GodsCrusader Kings II: Sons of AbrahamCrusader Kings II: Rajas of India
    Crusader Kings II: CharlemagneEUIV: Art of War

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    (North) Brabant, the Netherlands
    Posts
    3,362
    Good changes! I especially aspects like shattered retreat and disorganization. Making reinforcement more costly and giving manpower a 'natural' limit look good too. Finally a warchest was definitely important; many rulers (especially expansionist ones) often were short on cash...

  18. #18
    Grand Strategist takedown47's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDeus VultHearts of Iron III CollectionHOI3: Their Finest HourVictoria: Revolutions
    Victoria 2Victoria II: Heart of DarknessCK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    3,009
    No probs, drinking beer is actually fairly important for me too!

  19. #19
    Sergeant UberFish96's Avatar
    EU3 CompleteDivine WindHeir to the ThroneMount & Blade: Warband500k club
    Europa Universalis IV: Pre-orderEUIV: Call to arms event

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Ankara,Turkey
    Posts
    50
    Seems great so far!

  20. #20
    Corporal Salopian's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
    Posts
    33
    I have a question.

    In EU III while playing as Great Britain / England I was often able to destroy the fleets of Spain and France. I had therefore stopped them from sending more armies from Europe to their colonies. However their armies already in their overseas colonies could still fully reinforce from their manpower pools. This is of course a little unrealistic and frustrating, I know that colonial militia could make up some numbers but not replace tens of thousands of trained professional soldiers.

    Is there going to be some way of preventing this in EU IV ? Perhaps army reinforcement in provinces on continents without the army's national capital could be linked to the trade node system in some way.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts