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Puppets become Great Powers?

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Victoria 2 17560 After Action Reports (AAR)
wildbillhdmax01

wildbillhdmax01

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Jun 11, 2012
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So one of the things I find wrong with puppets in Victoria 2 is if a puppet becomes a great power there no longer your puppet. Now this may not happen to many minor nations, but the problem is when you puppet nations that have potential to become a great power that really sucks.

For example: I was playing as Prussia and Portugal and Spain had a problem with one of the states that I need to unify Germany. They declared war on them for repaying debts.(In other words the state was broke.) Anyways fighting Spain and Portugal was quite easy. I defeated Spain and declared white piece. Portugal on the other hand I decided to make them my puppet. After making them my puppet and must've been a decade or so that they became a great power. Only number 8 in the world. This didn't last long until someone else came along and took their spot. The problem was because they became a great power they were no longer my puppet.

In my opinion I really think they should change.

At the time I was number 2 in the world. And Portugal comes along and is only number 8 in the world. So because they become a great power makes them think that they're above me now? That they can just decide they're no longer a puppet. Which is funny because I can easily change that within a month.

It really doesn't make sense that if a country becomes a great power that it is no longer a puppet. Instead I think if a puppet becomes a great power that it must be a higher ranking great power than you to lose puppet state. And even then it really shouldn't just lose its puppet state. But instead should have to declare war on its handler to remove its puppet state. But in turn the handler should have a choice to just let the puppet remove itself from the handler to steer clear of war or pursue war to keep the puppet.
 
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Hmm, I really disagree. I mean - I completely understand your point, that temporary changes in a country's score (which occasionally leads them to occupy the eighth place for some time) does not necessarily make it a real great power. But that is more or less an issue with the great powers/score system. I believe anyway, once a country happens to be seen as a great power, it certainly keeps sufficient influence in the world (not always by military means) to make it's own independent decisions. A puppet state is by no means to be understood as a substate, with their government being some kind of subsidiary body. It is meant to be somehow attached to it's master in a political sense. And as the influential imbalance between master and puppet becomes smaller (again, not only with regard to military), it eventually may break free some time.
 
Valeondeus said:
Hmm, I really disagree. I mean - I completely understand your point, that temporary changes in a country's score (which occasionally leads them to occupy the eighth place for some time) does not necessarily make it a real great power. But that is more or less an issue with the great powers/score system. I believe anyway, once a country happens to be seen as a great power, it certainly keeps sufficient influence in the world (not always by military means) to make it's own independent decisions. A puppet state is by no means to be understood as a substate, with their government being some kind of subsidiary body. It is meant to be somehow attached to it's master in a political sense. And as the influential imbalance between master and puppet becomes smaller (again, not only with regard to military), it eventually may break free some time.
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I'm not too sure I understand what you're exactly saying. But it would be nice that instead of just the country breaking off from its master that there could be a political way of breaking off, or a military way of breaking off. Not just "Hey we're a great power F-you". It just doesn't seem right that a country magically just breaks off from its master, once becomes a great power for a short period of time. Even decades. There should be some way politically or militarily that a puppet can break off.

So need be you can just give the good old pimp hand to the puppet. So even if a country becomes a great power and wants to break off from its master, you can always use military means to keep them in place. Even if they're in 3rd in the world and I'm 2nd. There can be political and military means to either release or keep a puppet.
 
wildbillhdmax01 said:
I'm not too sure I understand what you're exactly saying. But it would be nice that instead of just the country breaking off from its master that there could be a political way of breaking off, or a military way of breaking off. Not just "Hey we're a great power F-you". It just doesn't seem right that a country magically just breaks off from its master, once becomes a great power for a short period of time. Even decades. There should be some way politically or militarily that a puppet can break off.

So need be you can just give the good old pimp hand to the puppet. So even if a country becomes a great power and wants to break off from its master, you can always use military means to keep them in place. Even if they're in 3rd in the world and I'm 2nd. There can be political and military means to either release or keep a puppet.
Click to expand...

You are thinking about vassals, Bill. A puppet is NOT a vassal, but a country which depends, politically, on another one. It is NOT the same thing as being under strict control - and, as soon as they get enough influence, they can stop caring about you. The military way IS there, but it's for minor powers. A puppet that became a Great Power has grown in wealth, power and influence: they will get orders no more. And, as everyone sees this, putting them back in their place requires infamy. You are going to a powerful nation to tell them that they have to obey you. Why should they? And if it is "because you are more powerful", why doesn't anyone starts as a puppet to the UK?
 
"I am now A GREAT POWER!!! why am I still a PUPPET WTFWTFWTF????"

Tell me that wouldn't be a regular complaint were it not the case that reaching GP status did not break puppet status.
 
WeissRaben said:
You are thinking about vassals, Bill. A puppet is NOT a vassal, but a country which depends, politically, on another one. It is NOT the same thing as being under strict control - and, as soon as they get enough influence, they can stop caring about you. The military way IS there, but it's for minor powers. A puppet that became a Great Power has grown in wealth, power and influence: they will get orders no more. And, as everyone sees this, putting them back in their place requires infamy. You are going to a powerful nation to tell them that they have to obey you. Why should they? And if it is "because you are more powerful", why doesn't anyone starts as a puppet to the UK?
Click to expand...

Makes sense. Still just want a way to either keep them as a puppet in a political or military way. Or even just let the puppet remove itself. Say hey we see you doing good. We will let you go, and maybe still be friends?
 
EUnderhill said:
Tell me that wouldn't be a regular complaint were it not the case that reaching GP status did not break puppet status.
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This. There is really nothing wrong with the way things are, regarding this point. However, one could think about improving the way, how it can be determined if a country actually becomes a great power or not.
 
Valeondeus said:
That would result in ridiculous implications. Think about making, say, China a puppet...
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Make being a puppet set your prestige at 0 then or something. I mean, nobody respects a little puppet. With a large amount of their score slashed, it makes it much harder to be a GP.
 
This is just ... delicious. Really? GPs keeping other GPs as pets?

wildbillhdmax01 said:
At the time I was number 2 in the world. And Portugal comes along and is only number 8 in the world. So because they become a great power makes them think that they're above me now?
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No, they just think they are justified tending their own affairs. Much different.
That they can just decide they're no longer a puppet.
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Yup. Political control depends to a large extent on acceptance by the controlled party. You may have cowed them with military superiority in the past; clearly, they feel self-sufficient again.
Which is funny because I can easily change that within a month.
Click to expand...
Perfect. Then just do that. Unless ... for some reason you can't? Maybe you have high infamy or they set about making powerful friends? Or maybe it's just not convenient for you at the moment. Well, unless you DO change their perspective in a way that justifies your threats, then they have every business ignoring you from now on.


dorukdorucu said:
Add a mechanic so puppets can't become GP, problem solved.
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If you're talking about a local fix so this gentleman can keep his puppets forever, maybe. As for "correcting" the game, I strongly disagree. It's already rare for truly puppet-like nations to reach GP status. On the other hand, if you're going to try to puppet Spain or Portugal or Ottomans during a momentary weakness, then you just have to accept that circumstances may change.


wildbill said:
There should be some way politically or militarily that a puppet can break off.
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Pretty sure this is true already. The only diplomatic actions a puppet can take is with their overlord, up to and including a WD of independence. On the other hand, from the puppet's perspective it is probably much more desirable to break off peacefully and retain a strong alliance. It's hardly a "F-you moment".


Last and not least, there are plenty of occasions when the nation that is your puppet also has something you want. Now that they're not your puppet, you might enjoy the opportunity to take it from them. And then, yes - correct the puppet situation. But the possibility to "rise to greatness and self-governance" is NOT something that needs to change in general ...
 
Foamingjetty said:
On the other hand, from the puppet's perspective it is probably much more desirable to break off peacefully and retain a strong alliance. It's hardly a "F-you moment".
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I would love for this to be able to happen but most of the time they just break off and never help. In other words there is no strong alliance. They almost never help in time of war. Even with a nice 200+ relationship. Doesn't matter if your being attacked or doing the attacking.
 
wildbillhdmax01 said:
I would love for this to be able to happen but most of the time they just break off and never help. In other words there is no strong alliance. They almost never help in time of war. Even with a nice 200+ relationship. Doesn't matter if your being attacked or doing the attacking.
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One of the reasons I never release Canada. So it can develop without me, and then stick a big middle finger up at me? It even keeps the union flag in it's corner, but still ignores me :(
 
Petrarch said:
One of the reasons I never release Canada. So it can develop without me, and then stick a big middle finger up at me? It even keeps the union flag in it's corner, but still ignores me :(
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And that should never happen with the Commonwealth. Well that's like. Would it make sense if Canada became a GP and broke off and never helped GB. Even though it keeps the union flag.
 
wildbillhdmax01 said:
And that should never happen with the Commonwealth. Well that's like. Would it make sense if Canada became a GP and broke off and never helped GB. Even though it keeps the union flag.
Click to expand...

In 1914 Canada would at least be a secondary power, and look how much they contributed! There should be some sort of special mechanics for it. One day I hope we can have it so when you make a colony/dominian it puts your flag in the top corner of the country/colony/dominion, and they remove it/get a new flag if they break away/rebel.... sigh... a man can dream ;)
 
Petrarch said:
In 1914 Canada would at least be a secondary power, and look how much they contributed! There should be some sort of special mechanics for it. One day I hope we can have it so when you make a colony/dominian it puts your flag in the top corner of the country/colony/dominion, and they remove it/get a new flag if they break away/rebel.... sigh... a man can dream ;)
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I may say you're a dreamer,
But you're not the only one.
 
I think some people definitions for puppet state are wrong.

A puppet state (also known as puppet government or marionette government) is a nominally sovereign state effectively controlled by a foreign power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppet_state

So, a puppet nation could become a great power, but should remain as a puppet from his master. The only situation where a puppet state could be free from his master should be when the previous government is overthrown by rebels, and alliances etc are broke.
 
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I strongly disagree with the OP.

The whole puppet thing is like this: you have such a strong influence in the country that they obey you most of the time.

It feels very "historcal", at least, and "human" even more that if your "puppet" becomes one of the 8 great powers of the world, it's leader will stop automatically agreing with you, considering their new fancy status, they will have a diplomacy of their own. They will maybe keep very good relation with the other state, but they will not be bound anymore.

There is no such thing as a perfect "puppet government". If the government manages to get the country to such a position of power, it should naturally tend to slip away from the "master"'s hands.

It's the most powerfull one's move to make to go remind the new great power with a nifty little invasion that they are still in charge.

It feels perfectly natural.

Probably annoying as a great power with puppets ( the feature is kind of dull IMO, and should depend on many things, like if a nation declines, it's puppets should slip away or something,i would prefer if it was bound to the whole influence system, much more dynamic and it should definitely not be forever), but still, feels natural. Once you become a great power, no one gets to dictate you so strictly what you can/have to do.

The perfect illustration is the OP's situation: Prussia invading portugal and making it it's puppet makes no sense at all. Just because of one invasion, portugal obeys prussia for ever? Maybe for a short period of time, but overall, doesn't make any sense, the countries are not even neighboring, they both have great national pride, and there are plenty of other great powers around who would meddle.
 
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