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That music is really nice.

I am curious were the slavic tribes nomadic, like the mongols? or were they more setteled in the area that they lived in?
In 867 at least, they were farmers and therefore more settled in. Tribes like Krivich still practiced slash and burn farming due to poor soil quality and a dearth of iron ploughs, so they migrated round their forests a little bit.
 
That music is really nice.

I am curious were the slavic tribes nomadic, like the mongols? or were they more setteled in the area that they lived in?


Procopius of Caesarea (500 – 565)

These barbarian nations, the Slavs and the Antes, are not ruled by one man, but live from of old in "democracy" and because of this they always manage their profitable and difficult affairs in common. Similarly, all other matters, so to speak, are common to each of them and were handled according to custom by these same barbarians. They believe there is one god, that of lightning, creator of all; they believe him to be sole lord, and they sacrifice oxen and all sacrifical animals to him. They neither acknowledge fate nor that it has some decisive influence in human affairs. Whenever death is already close to them, or they are seized by illness, or they are arrayed for battle, they promise, if they escape, to make a sacrifice immediately in return for their life. When they have escaped they sacrifice, that which they promised and think that the salvation was purchased for them with this sacrifice. Moreover they revere both rivers and nymphs and some other daemons, and they sacrifice to all of them. They carry out their divinations in these sacrifices. They dwell in pitiful huts, living far from one another, changing frequently all, and each severally, the location of habitation. Arrayed for battle the majority advance on foot against the enemies, with small shields and javelins, nor do they in any way don corselets. Some have neither a chiton nor a short cloak, but having put on only trousers up to and including the genitals, they are thus arrayed for a clash with enemies. And there is, simply, one barbarian language for each of the two nations.

They do not differ even in shape from one another. All are particularly tall and stout; their bodies and hair are neither very white nor blond nor are they very dark, but all are ruddy. Just as the Massagetae so they also have a harsh and careless way of life, and just as the Massagetae, they are full of filth. They are rarely knavish or base, even maintaining the Hunnic characteristic of simplicity. In past times the Sklavenoi and Antae had one name. In former times they called both Sporoi because, I think, they inhabit the land scattered about sporadically. Thus they have much land. They inhabit the greater part of the other bank of the Ister. And as regards this people it is thus.



"Strategikon" by Byzantine Emperror Flavius Mauricius Tiberius Augustus (582—602):

Leading a life of banditry, they like to carry out undertakings against their enemies in the forests, passes, and precipitous regions. They utilize skillfully ambushes and surprise attacks and thefts, at night and in daytime, devising many methods. They are experienced beyond all men in the crossing of rivers and bravely endure in the waters. Often some of them, while in their own land, are surprised by trouble and, diving into the depth of the water, hold canes in their mouths, made long especially for this and hollowed throughout, reaching up to the surface of the water; lying on their backs in the deep, they breathe through them. And it is sufficient for many hours, so that no suspicion of them arises. But even if it should transpire that the canes are seen from outside it is supposed by the inexperienced that they are one with the water. Wherefore those who are experienced in this, recognizing the cut and position of the cane, either stab their mouths with them or, taking them away, bring them up from the water as they are no longer able to remain in it.
They are armed with short javelins, two to a man, and some of them with stout shields that are cumbersome. They use wooden bows and short arrows smeared with a poisonous drug, and this kills if a man wounded by it is not safeguarded in time by a draught of antidote, by other aids known to the science of the doctors, or if the wound is not cut away immediately so that it does not spread to the rest of the body. Being without leadership and hating one another, they do not know order nor do they practice closed battle, nor do they appear in open and level places. Or, if it should happen to them to venture into an open clash, shouting, at the same time they advance a little. And if those opposed to them give in to their voice, they attack violently. But if not, at that same moment they turn, not attempting to test by hand the strength of their enemies; they flee toward the forests, having much success therefrom as knowing suitably how to battle in narrow places. Often when bearing booty, in the face of ordinary disturbance they disregard the booty and hasten into the forests, and while the attackers are roaming about the booty, they turn about and easily inflict damage upon them.
 
That music is really nice.

I am curious were the slavic tribes nomadic, like the mongols? or were they more setteled in the area that they lived in?

Cant talk about all of Slavs, but the southern ones (Serbs for example) were something in between, lets call it restless. They were both migrants and farmers. Meaning they werent tied to the land as much as some other cultures, but they did cultivate it, however, they could easily just pack up and leave at almost any point, and migrate as a group somewhere else in search of better (more fertile) land etc.

In general Slavs mostly built wooden towns (Dragovit posted some pictures earlier) and thats kind of a Salvic hallmark, although id say most people lived in the rural areas, not towns. Basically youd have a "krum" which is a hill fort (all made of wooden logs) and then town sprawling around it. Kremlin in Moscow, for example, is one of these hill forts i believe, around which one of the greatest cities would develop.

Just a small addition about Serbs/Sorbs. In school, when they taught us about Serbs/Sorbs (called "Lužučki Srbi" in Serbian, or Lusatian Serbs), they told us about a myth (which i assume is of aural nature) that tells about Serbs migrating from Zakarpatie (in Ukraine) and moving to some place in Poland, at which point a tribal chief died, and 2 sons of his both wanting to claim leadership. In order to avoid fighting etc IIRC they agreed to split the Serbs into 2 groups, and essentially have 2 new tribes. One son led his group to the north (just bellow Berlin - Sorbs) and second led his group to the south (all the way to Byzantines - Serbs).
 
Do Poles have anything to say about their list of tribes?

Ready for duty, sir!

Bavarian Geographer made great document around 870, which lists names of slavic tribes and number of their gords (grody) called Descriptio civitatum et regionum ad septentrionalem plagam Danubii.

So the first part lists western slavs next to german border with pretty obvious names like Beheimare - Bohemians, Surbi - northern Serbs, Vuilci - Veletes and so on. part 2 from begening to (16) Phesnuzi lists tribes closer to Byzantium and Danube river. Tribes in modern day Poland are listed from (17) Thadesi to (34) Thafnezi. Then we have some big tribes or nations in rather random order like Ruzzi or Ungare (pretty obvious ;) ) And then from (48) Uuislane. - Vistulans we have some tribies from Silesia and Lesser Poland that have White Croatian culture, not Lechite.
One interesting sidenote is authors comment:
(35) Zeriuani, quod tantum est regnum, ut ex eo cuncte genetes Sclauorum exorte sint et originem, sicut affirmant, ducant.

Which roughly means "from that kingdom all Slavs come from (!), as they state themselves" It is most probably related to first known Slavic realm of Frankish merchant Samo.

Now as to fragment 17 - 34 it is too often regarded by Polish historians as not accurate, because it doesn't note any names that we learned to know and accept as forefathers of Polish nation, like Polans or Masovians. Some resarchers even cut the debate saying that Lendians ( (33) Lendizi ) make their name from "lęda" - ground prepared for crops so it is basically the same thing as Polanie "of fields". I am not a historian, but only another IT guy with some love for history and neopagan reconstructors (Seriously what is the deal whith computers and pagans I don't know o_O ) although not a neo-pagan itself. So the thing is from the game perspective it doesn't matter for me if main tribe that unites Poland is called Polanie or Lendians or Goplanie, as I am not the one to judge if it is correct or not. De jure kingdom should be called Poland. Mieszko I is the first historicall ruler of (then duchy) Poland and his realm is not known as Poland nor the land of Polanie when he starts to be recognized by his neighbours.

Witold Chrzanowski, Polish historian who writes books about different Slavic nations, and from which I tend to take the most of my knowledge believes that Polanie were the the part of greater tribe - Lendianie. (Note that Hungarians call Poles "Lengyelek")

There is of course the elephant in the room that I may later approach which is the Piast dynasty legend of how Piast ancestor came to power.
 
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Well I felt in the mood so here it comes, analysis of legend of Piast and Popiel ;)

In XII century Gallus Anonymous (who was probably Venetian monk Monachus Littorensis) wrote Chronicle of Poland for Bolesław III Wrymouth (I wonder if he got the Proud trait). Chronicle was clearly tailored for the customer, as it doesn't mention some things or tend to use allegories in favor of Piast dynasty, but let's get to it!

Gallus writes that once upon a time in Gniezno, it's lord Popiel was throwing a great lavish feast to celebrate his two sons First haircut (Postrzyżyny). Two wanderers came from far away lands and asked for Popiels hospitality. As he was greedy he gave them none and banned them from his settlement (not very Slavic of you Popiel nuh-uh!). As it happend in the suburbia of Gniezno a not so wealthy commoner Piast was also having not so lavish feast (a fancy dinner, really) for his son's first haircut. Piast was not wealthy but he was kind so he was to happy to have new guests, although the food was scarce. As it happened every time Piast's wife poured wine (it was rather mead, I guess), jug was never empty and no matter how much food she put on table it was never lacking. For the two wanderers were not ordinary folk! They thanked Piast kindly and said that his line would be great rulers one day. Much later, Piast's son Siemowit would throw off Popiel from Gniezno and become a widely approved ruler. Popiel hid in his tower on the lake and was eaten by mice that dwelled it's basements.

Now, what is fantasy, what is half-truth and what is allegory. First of all the story could not happen in Gniezno. Gniezno and other great "baronies" of Piasts: Poznań and Ostrów Lednicki (remember tribe Lendians?) have been built in X century, while the story takes place somewhere around new starting date in Old Gods.
What Gallus is trying to tell us is that Piasts came to be by throwing off Popiel dynasty either as usurpators either as common rebellion or as one tribe conquering other.
Wanderers can actually be christian missionaries. Imagine two guys knocking on Popiels door and asking if he has the time to talk about Lord and savior Jesus Christ and he just shuts the door ;) No, what I really mean Popiel dyansty or tribe rejected christianity and so it was doomed. While Piast happily accepts them and so his line is to flourish in the new Christian Europe.
Mice are the most fantasy thing in the story and cover what Piasts were ashamed of. Maybe they just killed whole Popiel family or maybe they used foreign mercenearies like viking hirds to conquer his lands. Anyway it's not something to be proud of and does not have a palce in great chronicle of great dyansty.

So where did Popiel rule? There is a theory that he was ruler of White croatian Vistulians in Kraków. Around that time Svatopulk I of Moravia did in fact conquer land near Kraków, as Vistulan leader rejected christianity. Would that be the turn of events that let Piasts conquer one and for all white croatians south of Greater Poland? Mieszko I did name one of his sons Svatopluk. Or maybe it is just about how Polanie became the hegemony in their federation (Ledianie, Goplanie?)

One way or the other Piasts should be in beginning bookmark of Old Gods, but Gniezno and Poznań should not. I wonder if Silesia and Lesser Poland will be south slavic culture. Even today Polish highlanders from tatry have their quite unique folklore that resembles one from Balkans.
 
Ready for duty, sir!

Excellent work, pane oficerze!

Good thing you brought up the Bavarian geographer, I was about to do that myself, he gives an interesting info about the amount of cities for each tribe. But imo, his tribe list is far from complete.

Earlier in this thread I made up my own list. What do you think of it?

Western Slavonic, including the following tribes (and their capitals):
- Obodrichi (Arkona)
- Lutichi (Szczecyn)
- Pomeranians (Wolin)
- Lusatians (Drosdany, later known as Dresden)
- Czechs (Praha)
- Moravians (Velehrad)
- Slovaks (Nitra)
- Polans (Gniezno)
- Vislians (Krakow)
- Kujawians (Bydgoszcz)
- Mazovians (Plock)
- Silesians (Vratislav)


Well I felt in the mood so here it comes, analysis of legend of Piast and Popiel ;)

Cool story, bro ;) (literally) What about the legend of Krok, the founder of Krakow? Or Vanda, the Queen of Vandals? Is there something in those too, that can be in game to add more immersion?
 
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Basically youd have a "krum" which is a hill fort (all made of wooden logs) and then town sprawling around it. Kremlin in Moscow, for example, is one of these hill forts i believe, around which one of the greatest cities would develop.

Exactly, the name "Kremlin" itself derives from the word "Kroml'" or the older one - "Krom". The Pskovian fortress is called Krom to this day. The city with Krom was called "grad" and those were very numerous in East Slavic lands, hence Scandinavian name for it - Gardarike, "the realm of walled towns".
 
Earlier in this thread I made up my own list. What do you think of it?

Western Slavonic, including the following tribes (and their capitals):
- Obodrichi (Arkona)
- Lutichi (Szczecyn)
- Pomeranians (Wolin)
- Lusatians (Drosdany, later known as Dresden)
- Czechs (Praha)
- Moravians (Velehrad)
- Slovaks (Nitra)
- Polans (Gniezno)
- Vislians (Krakow)
- Kujawians (Bydgoszcz)
- Mazovians (Plock)
- Silesians (Vratislav)

See, I think playing historians and trying to come up with historical reality of 867 and all capitals and tribes is beyond us (or at least me), so I guess I could compile a rough representation of West Slavic lands in 867 and how would they be represented in game.

so let's have a little map:

map.png


So what we've got here:

Polabians - Obodrites + Veleti Should they be one duchy or just independent counties? Who knows.

Ślężanie [Shlie - zhan - niee] About 30km south of Wrocław (Breslau, Wratislav) there is Mount Ślęża. Ślężanie take their name from it, and Silesia (Śląsk) takes it name from them. Ślęża used to be holy place for Slavic pagans and many many years before them Celts (around 3000 BC). Place feels a bit magical to be honest ;)

Czech/Bohemians Don't really know how should be called and if should be united.

Vistulans, Wiślanie, Vislians White croatian culture so thechnically South Slavs, not West Slavs.

Pomeranians name is disputable, and they were probably just different tribes like e.g. Kaszubians, but this will do.

Great Moravia the only really neat and centralized feudal realm on this map. Consist of Moravia, Nyitra and Lower Panonnia

The Great Unknown :) Seriously, could be Polans, Lendians, Goplans. Or none of them, or all of them or just two of them. Anything is fine to me. Also neither Gniezno, nor Poznań exists in 867.

Bear in mind this me trying to color the map of counties/provinces that we are stuck with in game no matter the year.

There is one funny fact worth noting, if we would move just few years after 867 Sventopluk I of Great Moravia makes the map far more simple:

map2.png


I would love to play Moravia at its peak form, but hey, that what playing game is for I guess :) Also the story of Cyril and Methodius, rise and fall of Slavonic christianity in Moravia, those are the flavors that would be fantastic, but I guess too small in global area of game, to be made by developers.


What about the legend of Krok, the founder of Krakow? Or Vanda, the Queen of Vandals? Is there something in those too, that can be in game to add more immersion?

Not in 867 I don't think so. Those cover times way behind.
 
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See, I think playing historians and trying to come up with historical reality of 867 and all capitals and tribes is beyond us (or at least me), so

With all due respect, I disagree. For Wendish tribes this era is especially well documented (Saxo Grammaticus, Helmold of Bosov) so we can get their territory and chief cities pretty accurately. As for the east Polish tribes, it's more complicated.


I guess I could compile a rough representation of West Slavic lands in 867 and how would they be represented in game.

Great, mate! The picture gets more and more clear. But I see you have no love for Kuyavians and Mazovians. Also, shouldn't Sandomir be Vistulian?
 
This one southern bro has no idea. Im not sure if those are actual independent realms, or just areas inhabited by different local peoples, though technically owned by the Byzies. When it comes to whole dalmatian coast thats the problem, Greeks (and others) owned the cities on the coast (and few in the interior). Specially the coastal ones were important to Greeks, because sailing in galleys of that time required a port at specific distances (to allow safe travel). Outside of these walled cities, it was basically total wild west, land inhabited by Slavs and what not, no rules, free for all.

Specially the white strip between Serbia on lower map and lower panonia, what is now Bosnia, that whole thing was like ancient hinterlands, no road, just hills and endless mountains. Areas around "Branicevci" was where the total chaos begun cuz thats where the Balkan peninsula hills and mountains gradually end and Pannonian plain begins to the north, which was like half steppe land inhabited by hun like Avars and what not (a big problem for Byzies).
 
This is how I would arrange the West Slavic Tribes:



Though the names could of course be changed, like Kashubian could just as easily be called Pomeranian, etc. And Slovak could perhaps be merged with Moravian, I'm not sure.
 
@DanubianCossack

Mmkay, thanks, bratko :)

Can you provide me a map of Serbia of that time (and Croatia and Bulgaria, if ya will) that you more or less trust? I can't yet determine the borders of those states and Great Moravia, particularily in Pannonia and Upper Moesia.
 
@DanubianCossack

Mmkay, thanks, bratko :)

Can you provide me a map of Serbia of that time (and Croatia and Bulgaria, if ya will) that you more or less trust? I can't yet determine the borders of those states and Great Moravia, particularily in Pannonia.

Bratko is Bulgarian "thing" (bratko, bratko!, much like Russian "davaj, davaj" tho it means different thing obviously its like a phrase XD).

Ill take a look, but dont get your hopes high, we have very little information on that time in history, i wouldnt be surprised if all maps we have are actually Greek.

But what i can tell you for sure is that some of them are geographically right.

For example Dalmatia does seem to correspond to duchy of Dalmatia, Pagania i think was just a brief thing that didnt last, Zachlumia should be a county-sized thingy, Travunia/Travunija as well (both valid for a spate province, even in modern terms), Diocleia was a major thing, duchy-tiered entity, what is actually considered the first Serbian kingdom (the guy you start as in CK2 i think receives king title from Pope) though this is (naturally) disputed today (some claim this is actually first Montenegrian state) and what is stated as Serbia is i believe Rascia/Rashka, which is also duchy-tiered. Dlmatia and Pagania would be Croat (i believe), Zachlumia, Travunia and Diocleia would be Serbian (but Catholic), and Serbia/Rascia would be Orthodox (thats how churches spheres of influence were divided).

Dioclea/Duklja was home to Vlastimirović dynasty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlastimirovic, they were the first Serbian kings (according to conventional history at least, this is disputed as i said), they were very, very sneaky in politics and they fought Byzantines alot (sometimes siding with Catholics for that reason only).

Zachlumia/Zahumlje was i believe home to Nemanjić dynasty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemanjici most important dynasty in Serbian entire history, and first one to establish Serbia proper (and snatch part of Bosnia), later create Serbian Empire etc. First guy i believe was Catholic (originated from Zahumlje) later ones were Orthodox.
 
This is how I would arrange the West Slavic Tribes

Not bad at all :thumbsup:

I see you lump together Obodrites and Veletians (Lutichi) as "Polabian". While this is not impossible or fundamentally wrong, this misses the interesting opportunity to show their deadly centuries long rivalry, which ultimately lead to the destruction of both. When Obotrites were wacking Saxons, Veleti striked them in back, when Obodrites were in alliance with Charlemagne, the Velets united with Danes fought the Obodrites pretty hard. In fact all Polabian external struggle was nothing compared to their internals non-stop warring. Uniting them together just doesn't show that. Also, Sorbs (and other Lusatians) do count as Polabians too.

Also "Sorb" was only one tribe of the Lusatian confederation (with Gavolians, Stodorians and many others), it's more correct to name them Lusatians (Luzhichane)

The name Kashubians isn't in the contemporary chronicles, those are mainly called "Pomoriane", as you have noted.

Also, why no love for Plauen and Mishno (Meissen), those are undeniably Slavic during that era, a part of Lusatians.

The rest is fine. Though I'd also add the tribe of Kuyavians with Kujawy and Sieradz.

Slovakia stronk! :) They must be a part of Great Moravia, perhaps as vassals with their own lord.
 
With all due respect, I disagree. For Wendish tribes this era is especially well documented (Saxo Grammaticus, Helmold of Bosov) so we can get their territory and chief cities pretty accurately. As for the east Polish tribes, it's more complicated.

Alright, what I actually had in mind was we have certain game mechanics that will stay as they are in 867. And that is: county has around 3 holdings and a single senior count to govern them. This doesn't cover pagan tribes well. As you know they did not had such highly centralised feudal mindset. If you would want to put every tribe and settlement you find in historical sources, you would end up with lots of independent, but allied barony holdings with neither single count nor duke above them.
But then again, if say Obodrites would have been attacked, settlements would certainly unite under single leader against common enemy. And that form can be represented as duke ruling the counties, although he should not have any real power in time of peace.

So what I hope Paradox devs and those mythical region beta-testers are going to achieve is to color the map of 867AD Europe with pagan tribes who have the most potential, power, people or maybe have been succesfull throughout history EDIT: or just made de jure duchies and kingdoms on their land make sense.
And here I am hoping to give them some ideas ;)

Great, mate! The picture gets more and more clear. But I see you have no love for Kuyavians and Mazovians. Also, shouldn't Sandomir be Vistulian?

I highly value Bavarian geographer for describing this time period, and he does not report of any Kuyavians nor Mazovians back then. Those regions could have got their names from elsewhere or those tribes could just seperate from larger federations or come from east. I come from Mazovia myself and I certainly don't feel obsessed with searching for ancestor tribe living in my homeland for Gods-know-how-long :)
Sandomir could be Vistulian, although the ingame county streches so far east that I was rather playing it safe in that regard.

Some guy posted earlier Polish hip-hop music in pagan climate. Guys resposible for non-rap stuff: old instruments and music are known as band Percival, so have some of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYChQtDRN6w&list=PL3C86D37DB2339A90
They also have parallel project Percival Schuttenbach which is pagan-folk metal stuff, you can find that as well.

Slava!
 
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Bratko is Bulgarian "thing" (bratko, bratko!, much like Russian "davaj, davaj" tho it means different thing obviously its like a phrase XD).

I dunno, it's spreading here too xD Here it just means "bro, bruv, brudda, m8, pal, dude, brah". The more traditional variants are bratishka, bratok.


Ill take a look, but dont get your hopes high, we have very little information on that time in history, i wouldnt be surprised if all maps we have are actually Greek.

Nae worries, whatever map showing the borders of those states would do for starters.


In the end, I think if the devs screw the tribes up (which we all know they most probably will XD) you can use your super modding powahs to restore the balance ;)
 
I highly value Bavarian geographer for describing this time period, and he does not report of any Kuyavians nor Mazovians back then. Those regions could have got their names from elsewhere or those tribes could just seperate from larger federations or come from east. I come from Mazovia myself and I certainly don't feel obsessed with searching for ancestor tribe living in my homeland for Gods-know-how-long :)

Anyways, those lands certainly weren't empty and tribes didn't appear there out of the boom. Of course we can give those lands to Polane, but I don't think we should overpower them that much. Imo, there should be both Kuyavians and Mazovians in game, perhaps as "vassals" to Polanie.


Sandomir could be Vistulian, although the ingame county streches so far east that I was rather playing it safe in that regard.

Well, we don't have the necessary level of precision with that map. So f.ex. the Eastern tribe of Drevliane gets Turov, while historically it was a capital of another tribe - Dregovichi. That how Paradox roll, so far. They do improve, to be fair to them.
Anyways, no neighbouring tribes has better claim on this territory, so imo it should be Vistulian.


Some guy posted earlier Polish hip-hop music in pagan climate. Guys resposible for non-rap stuff: old instruments and music are known as band Percival, so have some of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYChQtDRN6w&list=PL3C86D37DB2339A90

Slava!


As far as I know those guys are now called "Jar" and are indeed one of the most awesomest folk band out there currently.

[video=youtube;NqeX2Poe8sM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqeX2Poe8sM[/video]

Hvala Bogam!
 
I actually do not want to comment too much about map since I already had a discussion on this forum the other day that almost made me leave this site forever. So I do not want to go too deep into it, other than repeat what I said than. All this "white" area on 814 map. are mostly different Serbian tribes. Also situation changed from then to 867 significantly. I think Serbia should consist of Rashka, Hum (Hlm, Helm), Ragussa, Belgrade, Rama, Usora and Zachumlie but I was withdraw from that disscusion accused of flaming new civil "yugoslavian" war :rolleyes:

My sources are mostly from Jiricek, Nestor chronicles, Pop Duklian chronicles and History of Serbs by Vladimir Corovic (who again pick up lot from Jiricek and therefore Konstantin Porphirogenit /spel?/). There is also many other smaller documents that I read. However I am not historian. And it is said there that serbs occupied in VIII and IX century the whole Dalmatia. But today’s Dalmatia is not what they refer about. If you can find the map from roman times you can see there that Dalmatia of that time was basically the whole present Bosnian republic, western Serbian republic in present and part of adriatic coast in present Croatian republic. Also it is known that they inhabit area of today north Greece as it was mentioned often that the population around Thessalonica was predominantly serbian. However as it was noted earlier on this thread that they move from place tp place around searching for "better life" mixing with other domestic and migrant population as well as among the different tribes among serbian corpus, being sucked by others like Bulgarians and in some cases Croatian tribes.

Zahumlje (is much better represented on this pick above than on the map of CK2 itself, since that was the area around the river Neretva (Za-Hum-lye -> Behinde the Hills) and not further. Further west was simply Croatia (and all those baronies and cites on the map like Duvno and Livno were not part of Zahumlie but Croatia to the west). They were part of Serbian "confederation" until one of there’s leader switch alliance to Croatian. For Pagania it's not sure if they were Serbian or Croatian tribe (or neither) but since they often fought Croatian some automatically assume they were Serbian tribe, which of course might not be the truth.

Porphirogenit also mentioning 4 biggest Serbian cities (what kind of cites were they, nobody knows, and also 3 of 4 have until today unknown location, although for two it does look like that they were around present day Uzice city in western Serbia >Drežnik< and one in Present Day Montenegro. The third unown named >Dervenik< still noone have a clue, some mentioned present day city of Derventa in North Bosnia, only because of name similarity some thinks it was located somewhere in Metohia or North Albania as of today. The Only city tht has confirmed location was >Soli< present day Tuzla and in CK2 map represented in province of Usora.) There is so many other details and I have not time or desire to write about them since this is not history class but just an video game, and that’s all.


Bratko is Bulgarian "thing" (bratko, bratko!, much like Russian "davaj, davaj" tho it means different thing obviously its like a phrase XD). .
Funny how often I get this. :) It should be just "Brate" no K anywhere thats bulgarian. And if you can pronnunce T very Hard and very long E at the end than you would speak in heavy sleng of Belgrade suburb of Zemun (earlier city by itself) often connected with modern mafia :D





For example Dalmatia does seem to correspond to duchy of Dalmatia, Pagania i think was just a brief thing that didnt last, Zachlumia should be a county-sized thingy, Travunia/Travunija as well (both valid for a spate province, even in modern terms), Diocleia was a major thing, duchy-tiered entity, what is actually considered the first Serbian kingdom (the guy you start as in CK2 i think receives king title from Pope) though this is (naturally) disputed today (some claim this is actually first Montenegrian state) and what is stated as Serbia is i believe Rascia/Rashka, which is also duchy-tiered. Dlmatia and Pagania would be Croat (i believe), Zachlumia, Travunia and Diocleia would be Serbian (but Catholic), and Serbia/Rascia would be Orthodox (thats how churches spheres of influence were divided).

Dioclea/Duklja was home to Vlastimirović dynasty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlastimirovic, they were the first Serbian kings (according to conventional history at least, this is disputed as i said), they were very, very sneaky in politics and they fought Byzantines alot (sometimes siding with Catholics for that reason only).

Zachlumia/Zahumlje was i believe home to Nemanjić dynasty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemanjici most important dynasty in Serbian entire history, and first one to establish Serbia proper (and snatch part of Bosnia), later create Serbian Empire etc. First guy i believe was Catholic (originated from Zahumlje) later ones were Orthodox.
It is more or less correct, Nemanjic are of course from much, much later era (as a rulers). And they are (there family) originaly from Zahumlye.

I would say also that "dioclea" and Travunia were always eastern church and never western unless you count the population of the cities on the coast, that were all catholic or heavily influenced by west church (on a way to become if they were not) by customs and way of life.
 
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Just a small addition about Serbs/Sorbs. In school, when they taught us about Serbs/Sorbs (called "Lužučki Srbi" in Serbian, or Lusatian Serbs), they told us about a myth (which i assume is of aural nature) that tells about Serbs migrating from Zakarpatie (in Ukraine) and moving to some place in Poland, at which point a tribal chief died, and 2 sons of his both wanting to claim leadership. In order to avoid fighting etc IIRC they agreed to split the Serbs into 2 groups, and essentially have 2 new tribes. One son led his group to the north (just bellow Berlin - Sorbs) and second led his group to the south (all the way to Byzantines - Serbs).

That theory that Danubian Cossack mentioned about two brothers and one moved from north to south and took half people with him, actually came from Porphirogenit. Who wrote about that saying that these >SORBS< came from land called Boyki (Bojka) and that were called Beli (white) there, and that are neighbouring Franks and Great Croatia which connect North and South Serbs/ Sorbs/ Srbe. So I would say if Lusitanian are represented on map they should have culture “Serbian” as per game mechanic as Dragovit suggested.