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It is very nice thread, I have to give you the credit.

Thanks :)


Serbs (especially those who adopted orthodox Christianity) still use (celebrate) many things from pagan period that are shown on your picks. Someone already mentioned “slava” that you have in post above where you have a “lunch” (trpeza) with candles. Custom in the spring with flower coronets (usually on the. St.Georges day) and most important burning the trees or branches that is still in use on a Christmass day eve, either in front of churches or in homes. And everybody gather around. And the more sparkle the burning tree made it means more joy and happiness in that year. It is all a bit modified as Danubian Cossack said.
And actually the main reason why majority of serbs accepted east over west Christianity (and they could both since they where located where this two meet) was that east one was more flexible and west more rigid and Byzantine missionaries let people leave there own pagan custom and incorporate them into new adopted religion, opposite of westerners who where more strict. So it did stay until nowadays.

Well, it's would be really cool if there will be specific flavour events for each pagan faith, relating to holidays, rituals, etc.


And one more thing (question). Some of these Slavic people where in two places at the same time. Like Wends that you have it in west group but starching all the way to south. Or Serbs who partially came to Balkan peninsula and partly stayed in what is today east Germany. I know that they are two different nations today (one almost completely distinguish (and the other on the good way on the same path ;) )), and thay are called different Sorbs, and Serbs, but they were the same at the time (and they still call themselves the same “Srbi”. Do you think that should be represented or not?

Well, yeah I thought of that. Sorbs -> Serbs, Dregovichi in Belarus and Draguviti in Macedonia, Severiane in East Ukraine and in South Bulgaria, Poliane in Poland and in Kiev etc. But since you guys say there's no need to fracture the South-Slavic tirbes further than simply Horutans/Croats/Serbs/Bulgars, this kinda answers the question. Sorbs were a part of Lusatian (Luzyca) confederation of tribes, so, imo there should be just a tribe named "Lusatians" in Wendish parts. And Southern Serbs will be Serbs, i.e. they will be two different tribes (perhaps both with Serbian as a culture). As for Polane in Poland, and Poliane in Kiev - despite the name, they weren't related, most likely. At least for the game purpuses, it's better leave them as two different tribes, since one was the basis for Poland, and the other - for the Southern Rus'.
 
A nice depiction of Maslenitsa feast

[video=youtube;5i4N7vC6-dY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i4N7vC6-dY[/video]


I don't know much about slavic relgions at all, but after hearing this... makes me think of Spice and Wolf, an anime show about a trader and a pagan god, holo, goddess of harvest.

This movie is apparently based in Central European setting (that city resembles Prague heavily), hence it is possible that Maslenitsa was actually the inspiration for this :)
 
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@Hibernian

Actually, I think the province of "Bezhtsky Verkh" should be renamed "Ladoga" ("Staraya Ladoga" is a Petrine-era name) and be properly Slavic, because the archeology is pretty firmly Slavic (+ a bit of Scandi). At least the main city there, other holdings can be, Ves' I guess. Everything east of it should be Finnic tribes of Chud' (probably in Belo Ozero province) Ves' and Merya.

Are you, by any chance, that beta tester with the special knowlege of Slavic tribes, that was mentioned in the PC gamer interview?
 
First of I am fascinating by Slavic culture and history, especially Russian, but I have a problem, do we know if the TOG exp will implement a "tribal" mechanism that europe (pagan and non-pagan btw) used to know in the early stage of middle-age ? If not how well will the rich diversity of pagan tribes (and the subsequent influence in diplomacy and efficacity to resist) can be modelled for all these tribes to necessary be implemented in the game ?
 
The question is, should the slavic culture even be divided into so many cultural groups and subcultures? I'm not convinced differences so long ago were such that each tribe needs its own subculture in game (with penalties that come with it), they could have been more like modern times regional differences and dialects. Maybe create just one slavic culture and 3 subcultures (west, south, east) with just the small culture group penalty between them, not the bigger different culture penalty.
In my opinion these days differences are much larger than they were, original orthodox christianity and glagolika alphabet from Byzantine empire missionaries in Great Moravia being adopted by some southern and eastern slavs, while western slavs were "westernized" with catholic faith, latin alphabet and other influences.
 
First of I am fascinating by Slavic culture and history, especially Russian,

Good to hear that, thanks! :)


...but I have a problem, do we know if the TOG exp will implement a "tribal" mechanism that europe (pagan and non-pagan btw) used to know in the early stage of middle-age ? If not how well will the rich diversity of pagan tribes (and the subsequent influence in diplomacy and efficacity to resist) can be modelled for all these tribes to necessary be implemented in the game ?

Maybe create just one slavic culture and 3 subcultures (west, south, east) with just the small culture group penalty between them, not the bigger different culture penalty.

+1 And all those tribes would be purely political entities, as opposed to cultural ones. But there would be lots of the tribes, around 30 or so.
 
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@Hibernian

Actually, I think the province of "Bezhtsky Verkh" should be renamed "Ladoga" ("Staraya Ladoga" is a Petrine-era name) and be properly Slavic, because the archeology is pretty firmly Slavic (+ a bit of Scandi). At least the main city there, other holdings can be, Ves' I guess. Everything east of it should be Finnic tribes of Chud' (probably in Belo Ozero province) Ves' and Merya.

Are you, by any chance, that beta tester with the special knowlege of Slavic tribes, that was mentioned in the PC gamer interview?
It has already been renamed in the latest patch, along with Velikiye Luki (which is just Luki now) and the Onega river province (Pomorye).
 
Omg, awesome! Big thanks, mate!

CR8S5mPh2MMYL4Wa4SCuIAYB6Sp0gALQqKwv4k3tpuFdp5YvBNqmYi2cmcUAccKZ-Bn7b_eegtYAObVbk65I_Q==


But wtf's with "Romny"? Romny is a city in Eastern Ukraine, last time I checked. What does it have to do with Onega? It's better be renamed Zaonezhie or something. And it's "Belo Ozero" (White Lake), not Beloozero, ffs.
 
And it's "Belo Ozero" (White Lake), not Beloozero, ffs.

No. In English it's known as Beloozero.

Wiki:
Belozersk (Russian: Белозе́рск), known as Beloozero (Белоо́зеро, lit. white lake town) until 1777
 
Well, I can understand Belozero, but Beloozero will be read by 90% people as Beluzero, which is wrong. Let's have a compromise with "Belozero", mmkay?

It purely has to do with English language naming convention, and for whatever reason, they call that city Beloozero. Personally i dont mind calling it whatever, i actually think everything should be called whatever the locals call it (obviously using English alphabet etc).
 
This is the epitome of Slavic spirit

[video=youtube;yAvxWdALqck]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAvxWdALqck[/video]

It would be incredibly awesome if a couple of songs like this will be made for the game.
 
Well, my belief with gods and monotheism do make them clash, but my general attitude is this. If there are countless gods in existance then I have no right to tell others that they can't worship their god; I just wish they gave me the same respect. As for creation myths, I have not actually found one for the irish. The closest is the Invasion myths, which tells how Ireland got invaded over and over and over.

That's certainly true, as far as I know there are no surviving Celtic creation myths. There presumably must have been some (though perhaps the Celts just never cared about it that much) though they didn't survive. Quite possibly because the Medieval Monks chronicling the old myths took various things out and inserted anachronistic stuff, like I think Noah's flood is mentioned in the The Book of Invasions, which is an obvious fabrication.

Myths are first and formost stories, and I do not believe that they are literal but instead they do hold some meaning that is relevent to that culture and people. But even if they are not literal, that does not mean they can not be true. Their is meaning and truth in most myths. :)

Hmm, but then how do you tell the difference between a false myth and a true account of the Gods? I mean, how do you know a certain God really exists (and is worthy of worship), or was just a old story?

I am a scientist, I work on computers, well the web to be specific but still :p Science and religion are not enemies, and the wonders of science can support religion in my view. I see no disconenct in being a polytheist and also enjoying the wonders that science brings. :)

Well, I think with any belief in supernatural phenomena you would have to come into conflict with certain scenic understandings, but that's of course true of any religion. I actually have a friend in Canada (never met him, just know him online) who is a Wiccan and he also works in science and is a very science-based person. Though he doesn't believe in specific Gods, but in some general "Oneness with Nature and the Universe" type-thing, so I would think it's easier for him to reconcile his world views.

One other thing you said in your pervious post interested me. You said that if you were in another country you would honour their Gods, but they don't affect you if your in your homeland. But that's a sort of strange belief to me, I mean why would each set of Gods have a designated piece of the Earth's surface to be in charge of? I mean did they all agree it amongst themselves, is there a UN for Gods? And which God is in charge of outer space? Are there Gods on every planet or just Earth, and if so why? I don't know, this is just odd to me, if I asked a Monotheist they would have an easy answer, they'd just say that their God was all powerful and existed throughout the entire Universe, but with Polytheism it becomes quite complicated.

I mean I don't mean to be insulting with these questions, I'm genuinely curious as to how a modern Pagan thinks these things work.

Though to bring this back on track; I think that pagan religions IG should not have religious penalties if someone is a differnet religion. Since in the pagan kingdoms they did not mind others following different gods provided they were loyal to the king. Now this does not stop the christians/muslims from hating you though.

That is certainly true, or at least it was in most cases. I'm not sure how you'd simulate it in the game though, since the mechanics are such that all religions automatically hate each other. It would be correct for Christians being ruled by Pagans to hate their Pagan overlords (like if the Vikings conquered Ireland or something) and I certainly think Pagan populations wouldn't like being ruled by intolerant Christians or Muslims, but a situation where a Norse Pagan is ruling Baltic Pagans wouldn't really involve a religious conflict. So I'd say the mechanics would need to be changed a bit.
 
@Hibernian

Actually, I think the province of "Bezhtsky Verkh" should be renamed "Ladoga" ("Staraya Ladoga" is a Petrine-era name) and be properly Slavic, because the archeology is pretty firmly Slavic (+ a bit of Scandi). At least the main city there, other holdings can be, Ves' I guess. Everything east of it should be Finnic tribes of Chud' (probably in Belo Ozero province) Ves' and Merya.

Sure the settlement is Slavic and Norse, but I'd say the countryside around was still mostly Ugric peoples. That's why I said give the ownership of the province (and city and castles, etc.) to Slavic or Norse characters (the nobility) but keep the province's culture as Finnic.

Are you, by any chance, that beta tester with the special knowlege of Slavic tribes, that was mentioned in the PC gamer interview?

Who me? Oh no, I don't know anything about beta testing (didn't even know they were doing that yet until you just said it). And I don't have any special knowledge of Slavic tribes, in fact I know very little about this period of history in Eastern Europe, but I'm trying to learn it. I did do some reading about the West Slavic tribes and Great Moravia, recently, but I'm sure there are other people who know the history a lot better then I do.