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Thread: Slavonic Gods

  1. #81
    Colonel Dragovit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vyshan View Post
    Interesting info here. I am not familar with the slavic tribes at all, so learning is always good. I do know one game I want to play is playing poland and keeping them pagan.
    How about keeping Russia pagan and Slavic and drive the Norse back into the sea?

    By the way, your name Vyshan (Вышан) means "a tall one" in Slavic. Coincedence? Don't think so

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragovit View Post
    How about keeping Russia pagan and Slavic and drive the Norse back into the sea?

    By the way, your name Vyshan (Вышан) means "a tall one" in Slavic. Coincedence? Don't think so
    ooh, I never knew that. I always just liked that word for someone reason. Kind of neat though.

    I am curious what sort of festivals were common for the slavic pagans? I am hoping that each religious group can get a small event celebrating their festivals to help with immersion/flavor

  3. #83
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    Well, they are somewhat similar for all Indo-European pagans.

    Slavic feasts are mainly related to Solstices and Equinoxes (the feasts of "Maslenitsa" in spring with ritual burning of a straw figure, representing winter, summer Solstice "Kupala" and the ritual mass bathing in rivers and jumping over the bonfires, big Harvest feasts in Autumn, and Koleda in Winter analogous to trick-or-treat Halloween or Christmas carols singing)

    Maslenitsa was celebrated approximately at spring equinox time (snow is still around at that time in Russia) and was a feast of letting the winter go with ritual burning of a straw figure, representing the winter. Ritual pancakes were also eaten in numbers.
    Fairs were usually held at Maslenitsa times.































    Some ethnic music for the atmosphere:


  4. #84
    Colonel Dragovit's Avatar
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    Also Kupala, or the midsummer day, when Slavs do basically what other Europeans do on midsummer.







































    Some moar music for the atmosphere


  5. #85
    General Hibernian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragovit View Post
    Dude, that's really cool, thanks!
    Sure, I'm just using this blank map.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragovit View Post
    This area is very accurate, Peresechen' was the capital city of Ulichi, that's 100% verified. The Primary Chronicle says that in the days of Rurik the Ulichi towns were spread to the sea. As for the Tivertsy, no city names are known for them, but they are considered to be the descendants of the Antes of the dark ages and the initial Slavic element in the ethnogenesis of the Moldovan nation (and aslo partly - of Hutsuls). Their area of dwelling is approximated as being in what is represented as Torki, Belgorod in the game pretty acurately, according to the maps I have. But what Primary Chronicle also mentions, is that eventually most of those tribes migrated north to Carpathian mountains or mixed with Volynians, due to pressure from the steppe. So, imo, at the start date those provinces should belong to Slavs (or at least Peresechen' to Ulichi and Torki to Tivertsy) and eventually be occupied by the steppe dogs. So, imo, Madyars initially should be at Oleshie and Lower Dniepr.
    Ok yeah, I see what you mean now. I read the (very short) Wiki articles on the Tivertsi and Ulichs and I think I understand the chain of historical events. So these tribes were living there from the 8th to 10th centuries, but were not much affected by the Hungarian migrations, but were then driven North by the other Steppe peoples, hence why they're not there in 1066. Ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragovit View Post
    See, the name Podlasie (properly it should be Podliashye) means "near Lechs, i.e. near Poles". Apparently Poles wouldn't call their land that, because they are Poles themselves The capital of Podlasia is Drogichin, the name that derives directly from Dregovichi tribe. And yes, it was a Balto-East-West Slavic mix ethnicity-wise. But it was a part of historical Rus'. Fun fact: Daniel of Galich was crowned by Pope as Rex Ruthenorum, i.e. catholic King of Russia in that town
    Ok, well it could probably be assigned to either West or East Slavic, or Baltic then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragovit View Post
    This is 100% certain, because it's exactly where the city of Ladoga was located. And Ladoga is the first capital of Russia. Can't belive the devs seriously didn't include Ladoga as one of the initial Rus' provinces! Finns were replaced by Slavs there in approx. 8th century AD. Then there are traces of Scandinavians. Bezhetsky Verkh is a really stupid name for that province.
    Well, ok maybe there were Slavs (and Norse) in the settlement of Staraya Ladoga but that doesn't mean that the whole area was inhabited by Slavic tribes. If you look at this map and this one (in Russian), it shows the Slavs only occupying part of that area, whereas the rest is Finnic. I would say the way to represent that is a Finnic population being ruled over by a Slavic (or Norse) character in-game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragovit View Post
    Well, what is outlined as Slovene green territory was the basis of the initial Rus. The primary Chronicle states, that Rurik was a princes in Novgorod, his brother Sineus - in Belo Ozero (which was apparently the chief city of the Finnic tribe of Chud'), and another brother - in Izborsk (the province of Pskov), which was apparently a capital of Pskovian Krivichi. It is also mentioned that the city of Rostov, despite the Slavic name, was a chief place of the Merya tribe. Chud', Merya and Ves' was the initial Finnic component in the genesis of Russia. They got Slavicised pretty quickly, but at the start date Yaroslavl and Rostov should be Merya, while Belo Ozero - Chud', but all subjects to Novgorod. The rest of the green provinces should be Slovene.
    Ok, but are you agreeing or disagreeing with what I said about those Eastern provinces being Slavic by 1066? Maybe they were ruled by Slavs, but I would think that most of the population was still Finnic.

  6. #86
    cool pictures and music As a neo-pagan following irish paganism; I can see a good bit of similarities between Maslenitsa and imbolc and Kupala with Beltaine. I do hope that a small event for these events can be in the game.

  7. #87
    Colonel Dragovit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vyshan View Post
    I do hope that a small event for these events can be in the game.
    That would be really neat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernian View Post
    Ok, but are you agreeing or disagreeing with what I said about those Eastern provinces being Slavic by 1066? Maybe they were ruled by Slavs, but I would think that most of the population was still Finnic.
    That could be true.


    @Hibernian, @vyshan

    On a side note, since you both be Irish:

    St. Patrick Day in Moscow


  8. #88
    ВИТЕЗ СА ШТИТОМ WanderingKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragovit View Post
    By the way, your name Vyshan (Вышан) means "a tall one" in Slavic. Coincedence? Don't think so
    Well it's a little bit different in serbian. "Vishni" (Вишњи) is pronaunced and means "One up above (high in the sky, heaven)" and you say it when you speak about God (allthough the God has different name in all slavic languages "Bog").

    Just to say it.

    Edit: Svevishni (Свевишњи) if you speak about one and ultimate highest God.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
    Well it's a little bit different in serbian. "Vishni" (Вишњи) is pronaunced and means "One up above (high in the sky, heaven)" and you say it when you speak about God (allthough the God has different name in all slavic languages "Bog").

    Just to say it.

    Edit: Svevishni (Свевишњи) if you speak about one and ultimate highest God.
    It's the same here. Vsevyshniy (Всевышний) is "the Highest" God. But Vyshan could mean just 'a tall man' in East Slavic.

  10. #90
    General CzokletMuss's Avatar
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    Speaking of music, soundtrack from "The Witcher" fits perfectly


  11. #91
    ВИТЕЗ СА ШТИТОМ WanderingKnight's Avatar
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    It is very nice thread, I have to give you the credit.

    And I do not want to spoil it, but I have to state, again, that I am really against this upcoming dlc and starting date. By my opinion it should start at earliest on 1054 and finished as it is now 1453 (full 400 years) with focus on Christian (and eventualy muslim) nobility and there interactions and wars. This is very nice thematic for different kind of game (maybe a game for mechanic and period from 700 to 1100).

    Aside from that, here are few things to add to your thread.

    Serbs (especially those who adopted orthodox Christianity) still use (celebrate) many things from pagan period that are shown on your picks. Someone already mentioned “slava” that you have in post above where you have a “lunch” (trpeza) with candles. Custom in the spring with flower coronets (usually on the. St.Georges day) and most important burning the trees or branches that is still in use on a Christmass day eve, either in front of churches or in homes. And everybody gather around. And the more sparkle the burning tree made it means more joy and happiness in that year. It is all a bit modified as Danubian Cossack said.
    And actually the main reason why majority of serbs accepted east over west Christianity (and they could both since they where located where this two meet) was that east one was more flexible and west more rigid and Byzantine missionaries let people leave there own pagan custom and incorporate them into new adopted religion, opposite of westerners who where more strict. So it did stay until nowadays.

    About separation (or uniqueness) of south Slavic tribes. My opinion is that it should be just two (croats and serbs) and Bulgarian if you speaking of slavinized Bulgars. As the rest were more tribes of the same “nation” . Byzantines called Serbs by that name but also were known as Triballs (spel?) because of the fact that whole population was made of many smaller tribes united under one name.

    And one more thing (question). Some of these Slavic people where in two places at the same time. Like Wends that you have it in west group but starching all the way to south. Or Serbs who partially came to Balkan peninsula and partly stayed in what is today east Germany. I know that they are two different nations today (one almost completely distinguish (and the other on the good way on the same path )), and thay are called different Sorbs, and Serbs, but they were the same at the time (and they still call themselves the same “Srbi”. Do you think that should be represented or not?

  12. #92
    ВИТЕЗ СА ШТИТОМ WanderingKnight's Avatar
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    And I almost forgot about these ladies
    Mithology and legends from pagan era present untill today.
    Vile.
    And my favourite Ravijojla.
    Not sure how this would help game...but it's fun and connected with the thread, I guess.

    http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%...8%D1%98%D0%B0)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superna...lavic_folklore

  13. #93
    Professional Lurker duhsveti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
    About separation (or uniqueness) of south Slavic tribes. My opinion is that it should be just two (croats and serbs) and Bulgarian if you speaking of slavinized Bulgars. As the rest were more tribes of the same “nation” . Byzantines called Serbs by that name but also were known as Triballs (spel?) because of the fact that whole population was made of many smaller tribes united under one name.
    Well i think Carantanians should also be a separate tribe cause they were never really regarded as part of either Serb or Croat tribes.

  14. #94
    General Hibernian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vyshan View Post
    cool pictures and music As a neo-pagan following irish paganism; I can see a good bit of similarities between Maslenitsa and imbolc and Kupala with Beltaine. I do hope that a small event for these events can be in the game.
    You are actually an Irish Pagan? You mean like a Wiccan or a Reconstructionist Polytheist?

    I'm an Atheist personally, but I've always had a strong interest in ancient religions. One thing I've always wanted to know about Neo-Pagans is; do you actually believe in the existence of the old Gods? i.e. Do you worship Lugh or the Dagda or Danu? Or do you just believe in a vague "Nature Spirits" type thing?

    And what do you think about other people's pagan gods, like Odin or Perun, or Shiva for that matter? Do you believe they all exist, or what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragovit View Post
    @Hibernian, @vyshan

    On a side note, since you both be Irish:

    St. Patrick Day in Moscow
    Ah yes, there's always Irish ex-pats wherever you go. Though nowadays there are also plenty of Russians in Dublin.

  15. #95
    Colonel Dragovit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernian View Post
    Ah yes, there's always Irish ex-pats wherever you go. Though nowadays there are also plenty of Russians in Dublin.
    Nah, those are our home-grown Irish geeks

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernian View Post
    You are actually an Irish Pagan? You mean like a Wiccan or a Reconstructionist Polytheist?

    I'm an Atheist personally, but I've always had a strong interest in ancient religions. One thing I've always wanted to know about Neo-Pagans is; do you actually believe in the existence of the old Gods? i.e. Do you worship Lugh or the Dagda or Danu? Or do you just believe in a vague "Nature Spirits" type thing?

    And what do you think about other people's pagan gods, like Odin or Perun, or Shiva for that matter? Do you believe they all exist, or what?
    I am a reconstructionist polytheist, though I do wish I could find a word that was shorter then celtic reconstructionism. I do believe in the gods and goddesses of irish mythology, as well as accepting that local nature spirits also exist. I am aware that mythology should not be taken at face-value. After all ancient ireland was a society where bards and other poets were held in high regard and that meant being able to weave a tale to entertain and also educate. or to put it another way mythology and other similar stories are lessons.

    As for other gods in different pantheons, I believe they are real as well. To use an anology, they are kind of like foreign governements to me. My gods are who I honor and who are more important and have an effect on my life. Other culture's gods I accept as being real but not having much effect on me normally. But to keep the foreign government analogy, if I was to say visit India, then i would make sure to respect their gods as it is their land. I hope that makes sense.

    Ah yes, there's always Irish ex-pats wherever you go. Though nowadays there are also plenty of Russians in Dublin.
    and heh for me, I had the funny thought of being an american ex-pat who would move to ireland one day

  17. #97
    General Hibernian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vyshan View Post
    I am a reconstructionist polytheist, though I do wish I could find a word that was shorter then celtic reconstructionism. I do believe in the gods and goddesses of irish mythology, as well as accepting that local nature spirits also exist. I am aware that mythology should not be taken at face-value. After all ancient ireland was a society where bards and other poets were held in high regard and that meant being able to weave a tale to entertain and also educate. or to put it another way mythology and other similar stories are lessons.

    As for other gods in different pantheons, I believe they are real as well. To use an anology, they are kind of like foreign governements to me. My gods are who I honor and who are more important and have an effect on my life. Other culture's gods I accept as being real but not having much effect on me normally. But to keep the foreign government analogy, if I was to say visit India, then i would make sure to respect their gods as it is their land. I hope that makes sense.
    Hmm, that brings up so many other questions about your views of theology and cosmology and a great many other things. I mean how do you reconcile with Monotheism, i.e. a God who denies the existence of any other Gods, do you think the Christian/Jewish/Muslim God exists? Just like any other God?

    That's kind of like believing in every religion in the world isn't it? How do you reconcile different creation myths, etc? Since every culture has it's own idea of how the world was created, you can't believe in them all can you? (Since they'd all be contradictory).

    Then how do you reconcile with Scientific evidence that all Humans originated in Africa 100,000 years ago? If those original people only had one set of Gods, then where did all the later Gods come from? I mean, Scientifically we would just explain it as people inventing deities to try to understand a complex world with phenomena that they just had no knowledge of. Or do you just not believe in Evolution and Science, etc?

    I must say, I do find it interesting how modern people can begin to believe in ancient religions again. I don't know, we're getting sidetracked with this though.

  18. #98
    I don't know much about slavic relgions at all, but after hearing this...

    Maslenitsa was celebrated approximately at spring equinox time (snow is still around at that time in Russia) and was a feast of letting the winter go with ritual burning of a straw figure, representing the winter. Ritual pancakes were also eaten in numbers.
    Fairs were usually held at Maslenitsa times.
    makes me think of Spice and Wolf, an anime show about a trader and a pagan god, holo, goddess of harvest.


  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
    And actually the main reason why majority of serbs accepted east over west Christianity (and they could both since they where located where this two meet) was that east one was more flexible and west more rigid and Byzantine missionaries let people leave there own pagan custom and incorporate them into new adopted religion, opposite of westerners who where more strict. So it did stay until nowadays.
    The Catholics weren't exactly great at stamping out that kind of Syncretism. A lot of Catholic Saints are theorised to be Pagan deities with the names changed (or Saints with similar names who then acquired attributes of the gods).

    Though there was a tendency among British folklorists to assume that every tradition was a secret pagan survival, even when there was no evidence of a tradition being more than 200 years old. That was when they weren't being outright frauds and inventing 'millenia old' ceremonies themselves.
    Last edited by Closet Skeleton; 08-02-2013 at 03:06.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernian View Post
    Hmm, that brings up so many other questions about your views of theology and cosmology and a great many other things. I mean how do you reconcile with Monotheism, i.e. a God who denies the existence of any other Gods, do you think the Christian/Jewish/Muslim God exists? Just like any other God?

    That's kind of like believing in every religion in the world isn't it? How do you reconcile different creation myths, etc? Since every culture has it's own idea of how the world was created, you can't believe in them all can you? (Since they'd all be contradictory).

    Then how do you reconcile with Scientific evidence that all Humans originated in Africa 100,000 years ago? If those original people only had one set of Gods, then where did all the later Gods come from? I mean, Scientifically we would just explain it as people inventing deities to try to understand a complex world with phenomena that they just had no knowledge of. Or do you just not believe in Evolution and Science, etc?

    I must say, I do find it interesting how modern people can begin to believe in ancient religions again. I don't know, we're getting sidetracked with this though.
    Well, my belief with gods and monotheism do make them clash, but my general attitude is this. If there are countless gods in existance then I have no right to tell others that they can't worship their god; I just wish they gave me the same respect. As for creation myths, I have not actually found one for the irish. The closest is the Invasion myths, which tells how Ireland got invaded over and over and over.

    Myths are first and formost stories, and I do not believe that they are literal but instead they do hold some meaning that is relevent to that culture and people. But even if they are not literal, that does not mean they can not be true. Their is meaning and truth in most myths.

    I am a scientist, I work on computers, well the web to be specific but still :P Science and religion are not enemies, and the wonders of science can support religion in my view. I see no disconenct in being a polytheist and also enjoying the wonders that science brings.

    Though to bring this back on track; I think that pagan religions IG should not have religious penalties if someone is a differnet religion. Since in the pagan kingdoms they did not mind others following different gods provided they were loyal to the king. Now this does not stop the christians/muslims from hating you though.

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