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So any comments for South Slavs?

I'm not sure you can get "good" answer for that. If I'm not mistaken each south slav nation has different view on that, especialy Serb-Croat issue. Don't take this as absolute but I'm pretty sure Serbs will say that croats are catholic Serbs and Croats will say Serbs are Orthodox croats. Almost like asking who got to eastern coast of meditereninan sea first, palestines or jews and who is "true" successor to who. Tricky :)

P.S. I did learn this in school, basic stuff and since I learned from Croatian book it was mostly about Croats, Serbs come along much later, when they got kingdom.
 
East Slavic tribes, as they should be.

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Bottom to top:

Tivertsi [Torki, Belgorod]
Ulichi [Peresechen', Olvia]
Poliane [Kiev, Lyubech, Terebovl', Korsun']
Volyniane [Galich, Peremyshl', Vladimir-Volynsky]
Drevliane [Turov, Beresty]
Severiane [Chernigov, Pereyaslavl', Novgorod-Severskiy]
Dregovichi [Minsk, Pinsk, Podlasie]


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Viatichi [Kolomna, Bryansk, Mojaisk, Moskva, Pereyaslavl'-Zalesskiy, Riazan', Pronsk]
Radimichi [Orsha, Mstislavl']
Krivichi [Smolensk, Polotsk, Vitebsk, Viazma]
Slovene or the original Rus' state. [Novgorod, Pskov, Velikiye Luki, Toropets, Bezhetskiy Verkh, Torzhok, Belo Ozero, Tver, Yaroslavl', Ouglich, Rostov]

I can't see any pictures in this post, can you fix it up Dragovit? I'd be very interested to know about these tribes because it's a subject I'm trying to research but don't have much knowledge about yet.

For West Slavs I would assume the tribes would be, Sorbs, Wends (not a real tribe name but what the Germans called them), Pomeranians (or Kashubians), Polans, Silesians, Mazovians, Vistulans, Czechs, Moravians and Slovaks. Or at least those are the main ones I've read about. Polish culture could be a melting pot which some of these could turn into if they are united into a kingdom.
 
Cool thread. And I think I can add something interesting. Few months ago in Poland there was a hip-hop-mixed-with-slavic-motives album premiere and it was critically acclaimed, as well as quickly become quite popular.

Check this out:
[video=youtube;5jnTMEfMWKQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jnTMEfMWKQ[/video]
[video=youtube;8m071sBOG5s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m071sBOG5s[/video]
[video=youtube;WWHOPUZ-sP4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWHOPUZ-sP4[/video]
 
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Well Croats had a lot of tribes. Some of them didn't necessarly consider themselfs Croatian untill later, and were subsequently integrated into the Croat kingdom (like Arentani [Neretvani, a tribe inhabiting the area around river Neretva] or the tribe of Banjani). The area of Bosnia is always disputed between Croat and Serb historians but the Bosnians could have been a seperate tribe. Also im not that familiar with Serb history in the CK2 timeline.

Oh yeah, south slavs (well Croats and Serbs at least), were well on their way of converting to christianity by 867 so i think at least the royalty will be christian. But there should be some pagans jumping around still. For example the Arentani tribe was still mostly pagan by the end of the 9'th century, and their land was called Pagania :p

Edit: i see some metal is being shared here so here's my local contribution
[video=youtube;uMNegVAWp5M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMNegVAWp5M[/video]
 
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Oh yeah, south slavs (well Croats and Serbs at least), were well on their way of converting to christianity by 867 so i think at least the royalty will be christian. But there should be some pagans jumping around still. For example the Arentani tribe was still mostly pagan by the end of the 9'th century, and their land was called Pagania :p

The Bulgars are in a similar situation. The King/Emperor (not sure how they'll represent it. It's called the Bulgarian Empire in history but I don't think they really have enough holdings for that) should be Christian, along with the majority -- but not all -- of his vassals, since he had "outlawed" paganism only 3 years prior.
 
I think Carantanians (Slovenes today) were the only slavs that were "fully" christian by 867.
 

It's pretty funny how we (Serbs) and you (Croats) put so much emphasis on distinction between one another today, and proving something that can't be proven, like "who came first", when nations as a concept didn't exist until the late middle age, if then at all...

From what I know, the christianisation of South Slavs began as soon as they arrived where they are now, meaning 7th century.

As for Bosnia... I believe they were all assimilated into Serbs and Croats, if they ever existed as a distinct ethnic group to begin with. Today's Bosnians are mostly islamised Serbs, but not because that land was Serbian. It was because of migration. As both Serbs and Croats migrated west fleeing the Turks over the centuries of their occupation, Croats were leaving their own lands to the Serbs who came after them. That is why the shape of Croatian territory today is a concaive, because they moved from the Turkish occupied territories into Austria's. However, that it out of the timeframe of this game.
 
It's pretty funny how we (Serbs) and you (Croats) put so much emphasis on distinction between one another today, and proving something that can't be proven, like "who came first", when nations as a concept didn't exist until the late middle age, if then at all...

From what I know, the christianisation of South Slavs began as soon as they arrived where they are now, meaning 7th century.

As for Bosnia... I believe they were all assimilated into Serbs and Croats, if they ever existed as a distinct ethnic group to begin with. Today's Bosnians are mostly islamised Serbs, but not because that land was Serbian. It was because of migration. As both Serbs and Croats migrated west fleeing the Turks over the centuries of their occupation, Croats were leaving their own lands to the Serbs who came after them. That is why the shape of Croatian territory today is a concaive, because they moved from the Turkish occupied territories into Austria's. However, that it out of the timeframe of this game.

I think we do that because we (Croats), feel threatened by our similarity with you (Serbs). So we develop this weird defensive mechanism of overexagerating history, and trying to make it seem as if we never had any contact with you at all. Well a lot of my people do. Personally i don't feel the need to prove my heritage to noone, so i like looking at things objectively.
Anyway i agree. I think any distinction of nation or tribe was mostly held together by nobles, not common folk.

The christianization of south slavs did start when they arrived but as anything in life it was not instant. Some areas took a long time to convert. For example the Pagania province i mentioned earlier only converted in 10'th century after the Venetians beat some christianity into them. Also Bosnia took a while to convert, and even when it did it still produced a catholic heresy (is Bogomilism in CK2? Cause i seem to remember running into it but i'm not sure if it was my imagination). I'm wondering how Paradox intends to handle this area.
 
I think we do that because we (Croats), feel threatened by our similarity with you (Serbs). So we develop this weird defensive mechanism of overexagerating history, and trying to make it seem as if we never had any contact with you at all. Well a lot of my people do. Personally i don't feel the need to prove my heritage to noone, so i like looking at things objectively.
Anyway i agree. I think any distinction of nation or tribe was mostly held together by nobles, not common folk.

The christianization of south slavs did start when they arrived but as anything in life it was not instant. Some areas took a long time to convert. For example the Pagania province i mentioned earlier only converted in 10'th century after the Venetians beat some christianity into them. Also Bosnia took a while to convert, and even when it did it still produced a catholic heresy (is Bogomilism in CK2? Cause i seem to remember running into it but i'm not sure if it was my imagination). I'm wondering how Paradox intends to handle this area.

Bogomilism is in CKII and it's (in the game at least) an Orthodox heresy.
 
I can't see any pictures in this post, can you fix it up Dragovit? I'd be very interested to know about these tribes because it's a subject I'm trying to research but don't have much knowledge about yet.

Fixed. Thanks for pointing that out, I've reuploaded it, hope it works fine now.

East Slavic tribes, as they should be.

attachment.php


Bottom to top:

Tivertsi [Torki, Belgorod]
Ulichi [Peresechen', Olvia]
Poliane [Kiev, Lyubech, Terebovl', Korsun']
Volyniane [Galich, Peremyshl', Vladimir-Volynsky]
Drevliane [Turov, Beresty]
Severiane [Chernigov, Pereyaslavl', Novgorod-Severskiy]
Dregovichi [Minsk, Pinsk, Podlasie]


attachment.php


Viatichi [Kolomna, Bryansk, Mojaisk, Moskva, Pereyaslavl'-Zalesskiy, Riazan', Pronsk]
Radimichi [Orsha, Mstislavl']
Krivichi [Smolensk, Polotsk, Vitebsk, Viazma]
Slovene or the original Rus' state. [Novgorod, Pskov, Velikiye Luki, Toropets, Bezhetskiy Verkh, Torzhok, Belo Ozero, Tver, Yaroslavl', Ouglich, Rostov]
 
To be fair, the province layout in game doesn't allow for much accuracy, for example Turov historically was a Dregovichi capital, but in game it's made on the territory occupied by Drevliane.
 
ugh... neo-pagans...
 
East Slavic tribes, as they should be...

Nice! Here's a map I whipped up showing your setup of tribes (including the colours) alongside the vanilla area of the Russian culture to compare.

(Link to full sized image)


However there are certain provinces that I have doubts about, I've put question marks on those areas.

Firstly the four southern provinces, Torki, Belgorod, Peresechen' and Olvia, where you have placed the Tivertsi and Ulichi tribes. But is that accurate? That area is approximately modern-day Moldova and part of Western Ukraine. But isn't that exactly where the Magyars were in 867? If I was designing the cultures I would put the Magyars there, not East Slavic tribes.

Podlasie is in Poland and the information I can find on it says the area was mixed between West Slavs and Baltic peoples, it's represented as Lithuanian in Vanilla CK2. Would it really be East Slavic?

Bezhetskiy Verkh up there in the North, I doubt it was colonised by East Slavs even in 1066, let alone 867. From what I can gather that area should still be Finnic. The same goes for those other provinces in the East in the 1066 map. I'd say that the East Slavs/Russians hadn't really penetrated into those areas by that date and they were still inhabited by various Finnic tribes.

Though I admit, my knowledge is limited to what I've read online, but that would be my assessment of it anyway.
 
The Bulgars are in a similar situation. The King/Emperor (not sure how they'll represent it. It's called the Bulgarian Empire in history but I don't think they really have enough holdings for that) should be Christian, along with the majority -- but not all -- of his vassals, since he had "outlawed" paganism only 3 years prior.

This is true.After Boris the official faith was Christianity and one of the reasons was Michael III ("their single demand was that he accept Christianity from Constantinople rather than Rome") but the faith in old gods remain for some time.

For example shortly after Boris I (889) his successor -

"Vladimir is mainly remembered for his attempt to eliminate Christianity in Bulgaria and the re-institution of Paganism. This event is written of by Constantine of Preslav in his Didactic Gospel"". Vladimir started the process of destroying the Christian temples and persecuting of the clergymen, because he regarded them as instruments of Byzantium and its efforts to influence the Bulgarian kingdom. However, Vladimir Rasate's actions were not well received by the population and the aristocracy, and he was only supported by a few of the boyars. Therefore, in 893, Boris I left the monastery he inhabited and dispossessed his son. He blinded Vladimir and put him in a dungeon, where his trails vanish."
 
Nice! Here's a map I whipped up showing your setup of tribes (including the colours) alongside the vanilla area of the Russian culture to compare.

Dude, that's really cool, thanks!


Firstly the four southern provinces, Torki, Belgorod, Peresechen' and Olvia, where you have placed the Tivertsi and Ulichi tribes. But is that accurate?

This area is very accurate, Peresechen' was the capital city of Ulichi, that's 100% verified. The Primary Chronicle says that in the days of Rurik the Ulichi towns were spread to the sea. As for the Tivertsy, no city names are known for them, but they are considered to be the descendants of the Antes of the dark ages and the initial Slavic element in the ethnogenesis of the Moldovan nation (and aslo partly - of Hutsuls). Their area of dwelling is approximated as being in what is represented as Torki, Belgorod in the game pretty acurately, according to the maps I have. But what Primary Chronicle also mentions, is that eventually most of those tribes migrated north to Carpathian mountains or mixed with Volynians, due to pressure from the steppe. So, imo, at the start date those provinces should belong to Slavs (or at least Peresechen' to Ulichi and Torki to Tivertsy) and eventually be occupied by the steppe dogs. So, imo, Madyars initially should be at Oleshie and Lower Dniepr.


Podlasie is in Poland and the information I can find on it says the area was mixed between West Slavs and Baltic peoples, it's represented as Lithuanian in Vanilla CK2. Would it really be East Slavic?

See, the name Podlasie (properly it should be Podliashye) means "near Lechs, i.e. near Poles". Apparently Poles wouldn't call their land that, because they are Poles themselves :) The capital of Podlasia is Drogichin, the name that derives directly from Dregovichi tribe. And yes, it was a Balto-East-West Slavic mix ethnicity-wise. But it was a part of historical Rus'. Fun fact: Daniel of Galich was crowned by Pope as Rex Ruthenorum, i.e. catholic King of Russia in that town :)


Bezhetskiy Verkh up there in the North, I doubt it was colonised by East Slavs even in 1066, let alone 867. From what I can gather that area should still be Finnic. The same goes for those other provinces in the East in the 1066 map. I'd say that the East Slavs/Russians hadn't really penetrated into those areas by that date and they were still inhabited by various Finnic tribes.


This is 100% certain, because it's exactly where the city of Ladoga was located. And Ladoga is the first capital of Russia. Can't belive the devs seriously didn't include Ladoga as one of the initial Rus' provinces! Finns were replaced by Slavs there in approx. 8th century AD. Then there are traces of Scandinavians. Bezhetsky Verkh is a really stupid name for that province.
 
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The same goes for those other provinces in the East in the 1066 map. I'd say that the East Slavs/Russians hadn't really penetrated into those areas by that date and they were still inhabited by various Finnic tribes.

Well, what is outlined as Slovene green territory was the basis of the initial Rus. The primary Chronicle states, that Rurik was a princes in Novgorod, his brother Sineus - in Belo Ozero (which was apparently the chief city of the Finnic tribe of Chud'), and another brother - in Izborsk (the province of Pskov), which was apparently a capital of Pskovian Krivichi. It is also mentioned that the city of Rostov, despite the Slavic name, was a chief place of the Merya tribe. Chud', Merya and Ves' was the initial Finnic component in the genesis of Russia. They got Slavicised pretty quickly, but at the start date Yaroslavl and Rostov should be Merya, while Belo Ozero - Chud', but all subjects to Novgorod. The rest of the green provinces should be Slovene.


I predict a lot of the people posting on this thread are going to be unhappy when the expansion does come out.

There will be street riots and embassies burnt down, to be sure to be sure.
 
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Cool vids, everyone!

Some Russian pagan-metal:

[video=youtube;TXBKw0ACJi4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXBKw0ACJi4[/video]

[video=youtube;WR4LVp9wjN4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR4LVp9wjN4[/video]

[video=youtube;zEyKRaZXtOw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEyKRaZXtOw[/video]
 
It's pretty funny how we (Serbs) and you (Croats) put so much emphasis on distinction between one another today, and proving something that can't be proven, like "who came first", when nations as a concept didn't exist until the late middle age, if then at all...

Yeah, and your quarrels are making us, Russians, very sad and confused :(