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Thread: Suggestion: Rurik's culture

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamianGrim View Post
    Theories aside, Rurik shoudn't be Swedish/Norse by the game mechanics. Or most of the Rus will be Sweden/Norse after several generations via conversion.

    There should be at least melting pot for creation of Russian culture.

    And well, I also think that Rurik story is just a myth.
    Yeah, pretty much this, except I don't even think a melting pot event is necessary. Just make Rurik Russian and have that be it, otherwise things will, like you said, turn into Swedish Russia. He could rule over Ugric-Baltic or Finnish or whomever it is and have the cultural conversion events bring in Russians, or maybe just his capital could start Russian. Something like that would probably be more appropriate than some overly complicated way of making the Rus appear.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratstranger View Post
    In russian wikipedia you can read more
    ..So much butthurt on their page and I'm not even past the introduction yet.

    But it seems like Slavic origins are an after-thought even on their page (and it doesn't even seem to bring up how it was "reinvigorated" as a controversy). I'm not deciphering any statements about some significant Slavic discovery in the genome. Maybe you're thinking of non-indicative trace amounts in later decendants from Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by DamianGrim View Post
    They are both just theories.

    Still, naming Rurik a Swede is an arguable generalization (I'd prefer at least name the new culture "Varangian", just like Normans are "Norman" and not Swedes too). There should be a lot of new cultures and melting pots everywhere in the new start date, anyway.
    One of which has a lot more support than others who have next to none, though obviously everything gets a bit sketchy this early in history.

    But I don't even want Swedish/Danish/Norwegian and so forth to even exist by 1200-1250 unless through a splintering event. It's a ridiculous setup not justified by actual culture/language at all, instead via political boundaries. As though the Irish should have a unique culture for each Petty Kingdom. So no argument here, they should all just be "Norse" cultures up here and modernist patriotic sentiment can crawl back into the dark pit it came from

  3. #23
    Further genetic studies seem to indicate the existence of two major haplogroups among modern Rurikids: the descendants of Vladimir II Monomakh (Monomakhoviches) and some others are of N1c1 group (130 people or 68%), while the descendants of a junior prince from the branch of Oleg I of Chernigov (Olgoviches) and some others (total 45 peoples or 24%) are of R1a and R1b haplogroups typical for Slavic, Germanic and Celtic peoples.
    But russian page also says that it's not obvious which of the lines clearer. More =/= truer.

    And no butthurt I even read some theories about semitic origins of Rurik. They have as much evidence as norse theory. All documents about this age were written in much later period. And we have only copies of them written even later. So you can only guess about Rurik nationality or even his existence.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    ..We really don't have a lot of important Sea Gods either, y'know. Not that it matters, you're thinking of Christians. Norsemen weren't much for religious oppression and forced conversions. There are certainly syncretic elements between Slavic polytheism and the Norse, though.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...anic_mythology

    as opposed to
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...avic_mythology
    where Vodyanoi is God of lakes and rivers;
    Rusalki, river nymphs;
    Veles, the God of all confusing things like: afterlife, nature, big salty waters, agriculture... And most confusing things have other dieties then Veles, but there is noone for naval warfare, noone for sea fishing, no sea storms or sea winds... Nothing at all to testify for any significance of sea to Slavs.

    And I am not thinking about christians.
    Neither Ruric nor his Slavs were christians. If you are implying that in pagan world the matter of religion is less important then for christian - I must say that you wrong. Romans wiped celtic dieties out. Greek did the same for Parthians and Egyptians. Vanquisher always brings his gods to the vanquished. Not the other way around.

    And syncretic elements actually ends at proto-european roots. Yes, both cultures have God of Thunder, but for Norse he is a main diety, while for Slavs he is one of the dieties. Perun was the "main God" for only a brief period during the reign of Knyaz Volodymyr.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by telegraph View Post
    If you are implying that in pagan world the matter of religion is less important then for christian - I must say that you wrong. Romans wiped celtic dieties out. Greek did the same for Parthians and Egyptians. Vanquisher always brings his gods to the vanquished. Not the other way around.
    He's implying it about the Norse world, not the generic pagan world. I don't see how Greeks qualify by having wiped out the Egyptian pantheon and being pagan at the same time - by the time they wiped the Egyptian pantheon out, they'd been christian for a couple of centuries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratstranger View Post
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratstranger View Post
    All documents about this age were written in much later period. And we have only copies of them written even later. So you can only guess about Rurik nationality or even his existence.


    No? Annales Bertiniani from 838 says that a certain people that called themselves the Rhos and were of Swedish origin came to Constantinople, and Basil I sent a letter to Ludwig II describing Scandinavians being in power in a "northern khaganate" found nearby the Khazar khaganate.
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  6. #26
    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratstranger View Post
    But russian page also says that it's not obvious which of the lines clearer. More =/= truer.
    So you're taking some of the broader Haplogroups of northern Europe and just using it as a synonym for "Slavs"? Don't you think that's dishonest? I mean those two don't exactly overlap all that well to eachother.[1][2] Both are quite present in Scandinavia to about such a degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratstranger View Post
    And no butthurt I even read some theories about semitic origins of Rurik. They have as much evidence as norse theory. All documents about this age were written in much later period. And we have only copies of them written even later. So you can only guess about Rurik nationality or even his existence.
    Well, something is clearly up when one nation, known for nationalistic sentiment, uniquely spends it's opening paragraph going on about "Normanists".

    And welcome to History. I guess you don't believe in 90% of historical figures, then. Also: Just repeating "They have just as good evidence!" doesn't actually make it so. Generally speaking you'd get more.. non-Russian academics agreeing with you if that were the case, I'd say.

  7. #27
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    But if we make Rurik Russian... His sons and successor wouldn't have norse names... But in history they had names of norse origin... right?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkgamma View Post
    He's implying it about the Norse world, not the generic pagan world. I don't see how Greeks qualify by having wiped out the Egyptian pantheon and being pagan at the same time - by the time they wiped the Egyptian pantheon out, they'd been christian for a couple of centuries.
    I am talking about aftermath of Alexander's conquest.

  9. #29
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    They, the ​Macedonians didn't wipe out the Egyptian pantheon, just gave the Egyptians a different culture pharaoh (who promptly associated more with Egyptian culture afterwards)
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  10. #30
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    Yeah, just a couple. You bunched together older Germanic deities with the ones relevant to the North. All on that list aren't even gods, but rather mythological beings. One of the proper Gods is actually a Giant who takes on those characteristics and his wife-goddess. The most relevant one of the lot is Njörðr, as a God of Seafaring and Fishing.

    Mímir also isn't a Sea God, he's the God of Knowledge and Wisdom. He just happens to have a Well of Wisdom, which doesn't really have much to do with the mortals.

    Quote Originally Posted by telegraph View Post
    Romans wiped celtic dieties out. Greek did the same for Parthians and Egyptians. Vanquisher always brings his gods to the vanquished. Not the other way around.
    [Citation needed]

    You'll also notice how you're not talking about Romans or Greeks. Neither of which "Wiped out" local religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by telegraph View Post
    And syncretic elements actually ends at proto-european roots. Yes, both cultures have God of Thunder, but for Norse he is a main diety, while for Slavs he is one of the dieties. Perun was the "main God" for only a brief period during the reign of Knyaz Volodymyr.
    ..Perhaps you shouldn't be speaking authoritatively on Norse religion if you really think this.

    Edit: Ah, misread that as just the main deity in conjunction to you using "the Main God" right after. Dishonest wording. Also, the primary position in the Pantheon was perhaps Týr up until the Migration Period, where Odin took over as the more popular leading deity. Things can change.

  11. #31
    And brothers and himself too.
    Sineus = Blue Mustache.

    And his grandson would not forfeit the most essential feature of Norse warrior - Beard. Norse without a beard is a laughing stock, yet Knyaz Svyatoslav is described.

  12. #32
    Normanist are the scientists who believe in the norse theory. Some of them was russians. Most of them. There were even soviet normanists despite of your so-loved "Stalinist propaganda".

    And its just silly to accuse only russians as being nationalistic. I'm sure that Sweden has it's own "nationalistic sentiment" as well.

  13. #33
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    Guys, guys calm down! I think we can all agree on at least one thing: Rurik most certainly wasn't a Frank... right? We should find conclusions that we all can agree on, even if they are not all that accurate.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratstranger View Post
    Normanist are the scientists who believe in the norse theory. Some of them was russians. Most of them. There were even soviet normanists despite of your so-loved "Stalinist propaganda".

    And its just silly to accuse only russians as being nationalistic. I'm sure that Sweden has it's own "nationalistic sentiment" as well.
    Tu quoque won't get you anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by telegraph View Post
    And brothers and himself too.
    Sineus = Blue Mustache.

    And his grandson would not forfeit the most essential feature of Norse warrior - Beard. Norse without a beard is a laughing stock, yet Knyaz Svyatoslav is described.
    Totally irrelevant? Beards really didn't have that much importance.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olligarchy View Post
    Guys, guys calm down! I think we can all agree on at least one thing: Rurik most certainly wasn't a Frank... right? We should find conclusions that we all can agree on, even if they are not all that accurate.
    He wasn't a Swede either. As I said earlier, we need more cultures and melting pots in new start date.

    And a small OT, will there be finally Sicilian culture melting pot in the base game? Why there is even Kingdom of Sicily without such culture...

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamianGrim View Post
    He wasn't a Swede either. As I said earlier, we need more cultures and melting pots in new start date.
    Well, for all we know, he likely was.
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  17. #37
    I think Paradox should follow the most mainstream theory, i.e., Rurik was a Varangian. The more interesting question would be what kind of religion he should have.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratstranger View Post
    Normanist are the scientists who believe in the norse theory. Some of them was russians. Most of them. There were even soviet normanists despite of your so-loved "Stalinist propaganda".
    I like the way you say it like I just made it up, when the article itself describes it as being more or less a disappeared view of the subject until specifically revived in that era.

    I'm also not saying Russians are incapable of not being reactionarily "Anti-Normanist". That's not the same as pretty much every single one who is.. is also from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratstranger View Post
    And its just silly to accuse only russians as being nationalistic. I'm sure that Sweden has it's own "nationalistic sentiment" as well.
    The two aren't remotely comparable. Sweden is one of the least Nationalistic countries on Earth, where-as Russia is.. Russia.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by onodera View Post
    I think Paradox should follow the most mainstream theory, i.e., Rurik was a Varangian. The more interesting question would be what kind of religion he should have.
    Norse?

    He is already in the game... Look art the history of Novgorod. He is Swedish Norse.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by onodera View Post
    I think Paradox should follow the most mainstream theory, i.e., Rurik was a Varangian. The more interesting question would be what kind of religion he should have.
    Ásatrú, obviously, but "Varangian" wasn't a culture!
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