Suggestion: Rurik's culture

nalivayko · Feb 1, 2013

A suggestion to avoid a potential debate about the origin of Rurik. There are plenty of theories out there, both Normanist and anti-Normanist. Even within the Normanist camp, there are different opinions, some stating that Rurik was a Swede, some identifying him with Rorik of Dorestad. The name is believed to be a derivative of Roderick (check Wiki for other variants). Yet it does have equivalents in the Slavic world (settlement of Rerik, near Rostock, to be one example), which is not suprising. Many Slavic names have Germanic equivalents, our histories are too closely connected.

Then, of course, there is a debate about the origins of the word Rus. We've got the theories about Scandinavian, Germanic, Finnish, Baltic, Slavic, Sarmatic and Armenian origins. Take your pick. The debate goes on, although, for the most part, it's participants have their minds made up (read: they disagree).

The suggestion is simple then: start Rurik and his followers with Russian culture (anybody can read anything they would like into that). Have him rule over Slavic/Finno-Ugric tribes, not Russian tribes. Call it Russian or Rusin or Rus, none would care and everyone would read Russian in a way that is most acceptable to him.

On the same note, have Russian be a culture similar to English and have Rurik's culture as Rus/Rusin. Thus, a combination of Slavic/Finno-Ugric with Rusin would produce Russian culture.

NewbieOne · Feb 1, 2013

I would be in favour of treating Rurik as a Swede or maybe Dane for a number of reasons:

– Rurikid descendants test positive for the appropriate Germanic-related genes;
– Varangians are pretty well documented and all;
– the story is generally accepted in this version.

Therefore, for a simplified popular-science reconstruction rather than academic hair-splitting, such an at once accepted and acceptable (i.e. feasible) version should be the guide.

This said, cultures in CK2 are not ethnicities, they depend on your upbringing more than on your roots. Hence, Russian culture on the early Rurikids or even Rurik himself wouldn't really be such a problem.

telegraph · Feb 1, 2013

It would be nice and almost historical to make an adventurer Rurik of house Rurikovich(like Godwin is of house Godwinson), from Varyag culture. Then there could be "melting pot" events leading to creation of Lithuanian, Russian and Ruthenian cultures, much like Saxon become English under Norman rule.

telegraph · Feb 1, 2013

NewbieOne said:
– Rurikid descendants test positive for the appropriate Germanic-related genes;

Which are those? if you are talking about nobles of Russia - they had a lot of germnanic blood from later infusions. Peter I reforms for one.

NewbieOne said:
– Varangians are pretty well documented and all;

Are varangians == varyags? Heraldry would not agree.

NewbieOne said:
– the story is generally accepted in this version.

that story is really hard to believe. What noble/nobles/people/person would invite a foreigner to rule over him, while he has better land and better army and more wealth? I just do not buy it.

Nuril · Feb 1, 2013

telegraph said:
Which are those? if you are talking about nobles of Russia - they had a lot of germnanic blood from later infusions. Peter I reforms for one.

From Uppland, Sweden. Although there's also a mix of West Finnic, which isn't that odd since Uppland was right on the border to the Finnic tribes at the time and they were on friendly terms with the Norse. It's by far most probable that he spoke Norse and had such a culture, even if some parentage was Finnic.

I'd rather not base development on something popularized via Stalinist propaganda appealing to Russian xenophobia. It had nothing to do with us "claiming Russia". Much like how Normandy is more a part of Anglo-French history than the Danish one.

telegraph said:
that story is really hard to believe. What noble/nobles/people/person would invite a foreigner to rule over him, while he has better land and better army and more wealth? I just do not buy it.

Every part of a Ruler's account needn't be true. Such details could clearly be out of political convenience, rather than to appear as a foreign conqueror.

Empty86 · Feb 1, 2013

Are there still any serious historians that believe Rurik was not a foreigner? Don't think so, so it'd be best to just follow what most historians believe to be true. You could make Rurik's son Igor Russian but he probably wasn't born yet in 867.

Ratstranger · Feb 1, 2013

I'd rather not base development on something popularized via Stalinist propaganda appealing to Russian xenophobia.

It's just not true. There are some seriuos scientific theories about alternative Rurik's origin, not just some "Stalinist propoganda''. Sometimes it is westerners who are xenophobic.

romeport · Feb 1, 2013

Normanist theory in game? No way. Rurik was slav. Obodrit from Mecklenburg.

stanko jovic · Feb 1, 2013

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik

telegraph · Feb 1, 2013

Nuril said:
Every part of a Ruler's account needn't be true. Such details could clearly be out of political convenience, rather than to appear as a foreign conqueror.

I see what are you telling and I agree that primary chronicle is a bad place to look for truth. Mainly because Nestor was greek, and christian.

But how about this:
If Rurik was to come conquiring - he would bring his gods along. Norse/Finish/Dane cultures are based around sea. How many sea Gods are there in those cultures? go count.
How many sea gods are there in Slavic cultures? well, one actually. That is Chornomor, who is a warrior God of southern Black Sea.
What about Baltic Sea? surprise-surprise - there is none such diety. Slavs were not present at the Baltic Sea at that time (not counting questionable Pommerania presence, and even there we can find no powerful sea Gods.).

Can we believe that mighty vikings conquired Slavs and decided to forfeit their Gods, who led them to victory and worship the Gods of the vanquished?

Nuril · Feb 1, 2013

..We really don't have a lot of important Sea Gods either, y'know. Not that it matters, you're thinking of Christians. Norsemen weren't much for religious oppression and forced conversions. There are certainly syncretic elements between Slavic polytheism and the Norse, though.

Dutchling · Feb 1, 2013

People demanding unhistorical* stuff in the game because of nationalistic reasons?
Hmm... Where have I seen that before :glare:

*or: something that would be plausible if not for other more valid theories.

DLFebin · Feb 1, 2013

Theories aside, Rurik shoudn't be Swedish/Norse by the game mechanics. Or most of the Rus will be Sweden/Norse after several generations via conversion.

There should be at least melting pot for creation of Russian culture.

And well, I also think that Rurik story is just a myth.

NewbieOne · Feb 1, 2013

telegraph said:
Which are those? if you are talking about nobles of Russia - they had a lot of germnanic blood from later infusions. Peter I reforms for one.

More in general, the Rurikovich houses, not just interrelated nobles. Peter I was a Romanov, his relationship with the Rurikid house was extremely remote. There were still a bunch of Rurikid cadet dynasties, even in Poland-Lithuania. And still are. Researchers supposedly took their genetic material and found some confirmation of the myth. IIRC it was simply on wikipedia, nothing fancier than that.

Also, names of the princes and their families tend to suggest Germanic links, as does intermarrying in Scandinavia, and some sagas putting Viking lords in charge of clearly Russian territories.

Are varangians == varyags? Heraldry would not agree.

Hmmm? If you could please elaborate (or paste a link, no need to waste your time typing).

that story is really hard to believe. What noble/nobles/people/person would invite a foreigner to rule over him, while he has better land and better army and more wealth? I just do not buy it.

It's been happening all the time throughout history. Inviting a ruler or high official from the outside often means appointing someone who is not connected with the multilayered plotting webs and rivalries permeating your society. I remember translating a mediaeval Italian statute that required certain judicial officials to be men from the outside to guarantee their impartiality and resilience to corruption. It doesn't always come down to, "hey, we're all incompetent, how about we ask foreigners to rule us." Sometimes it's about a foreign ruler's (or relative thereof) recognised ability or prestige... or the aforementioned problem of impartiality and trust in relation to involvement with one or other local faction.

Dutchling said:
People demanding unhistorical* stuff in the game because of nationalistic reasons?
Hmm... Where have I seen that before :glare:

*or: something that would be plausible if not for other more valid theories.

I don't care about nationalistic stuff either way. Most of my blood is probably Slavic.

Darkgamma · Feb 1, 2013

telegraph said:
Are varangians == varyags? Heraldry would not agree.

We have direct evidence from Greek:
varægjar = варѣги = βɑρɑɣɣoɪ ~ βɑρɑɪɣoɪ

Nuril · Feb 1, 2013

DamianGrim said:
Theories aside, Rurik shoudn't be Swedish/Norse by the game mechanics. Or most of the Rus will be Sweden/Norse after several generations via conversion.

There should be at least melting pot for creation of Russian culture.

If anything they need to fix the fact that having a religion means you instantly push hard to convert people to it, rather than being tolerant and not suffering penalties. It's why I've had to put nominally Christian Scandinavians in my mod's time-frame as Ásatrú, just so they won't start rampaging around to stomp others out. That's essentially just a broken part of the game in the default extremism.

But yes, we could use more melting pots. Given the name arising from them anyway one could easily have a native Slavic culture and other Lords that eventually blend into Russian. One could even add in extra possible foreign cultures to do it with, to please you hipsters that need to pick obscure theories out of dislike for us.

Dragula · Feb 1, 2013

According to the FamilyTreeDNA Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project, Rurik appears to have belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup N1c1, based on testing of his modern male line descendants.[2] But while genetically related to the later Baltic Finnic peoples, the Rurikids do not possess the DYS390=24 mutation associated with East Finns and Karelians, theirs remaining the ancestral DYS390=23 (which is also found among West Finns). The Rurikid haplotype itself (all 67 markers considered) is more closely associated with Northern Germanic language speakers.[3]

Uppland, where Rurik allegedly was born, was during his lifetime bordered by Norrland - the entire northern half of today's Sweden -, which then was not a part of the Northern Germanic language zone.

Ratstranger · Feb 1, 2013

In russian wikipedia you can read more about this research. The also find another haplogroup connected with slavs from Eastern Europe. It' just not clear which of them have earlier origins.

Dragula · Feb 1, 2013

Ratstranger said:
In russian wikipedia you can read more about this research. The also find another haplogroup connected with slavs from Eastern Europe. It' just not clear which of them have earlier origins.

Certainly, but there are also swedish, as well as slavic documents depicting Rurik and his journey. Most documents point to him being born in Uppland, though. Just give us back Petrograd!

DLFebin · Feb 1, 2013

Nuril said:
One could even add in extra possible foreign cultures to do it with, to please you hipsters that need to pick obscure theories out of dislike for us.

They are both just theories.

Still, naming Rurik a Swede is an arguable generalization (I'd prefer at least name the new culture "Varangian", just like Normans are "Norman" and not Swedes too). There should be a lot of new cultures and melting pots everywhere in the new start date, anyway.

Suggestion: Rurik's culture

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