How do I win with Germany? Impossible right

Part of the problem with this game is that it sticks almost too close to real History: this shows exactly how screwed Germany was in our world, and how surprising it is that they even lasted as long as they did. However, this does not help gameplay, does it? lol

I will admit, the build times, in some cases doubled or tripled, makes it very difficult for smaller nations, or nations like Germany that starts with such a small(ish) army to expand. However, this is where the Ministers, technology and ideology is important. If you get the ministers that will give you bonuses to producing infantry/armor/motorized/aircraft etc. etc will help you, and the air force is vital. I have won games with just a crapload of tactical/CAS bombers versus everyone else that stick to Ground attack missions, and enough infantry to mop up after.

Also, if you want to build units quicker, moving to a Free Market and a Hawk Lobby with your ideology will give you almost a 40% reduction in times. However, especially with the Free Market, this has to be weighed with the extra IC you can get with a Centralized Government.

So, it really depends what you want: more units at a slowed pace, or fewer units more quickly.

Panther 2 said:

Playing "DARKEST HOUR" as Germany from 1933 and it's a no winner, is this true?

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Hi Panther, and no it's not. It is very difficult however, and you need to familiarise yourself with (and take best advantage of) the German events in this scenario if you're to have a fighting chance. It's gamey, but the trick is to let the events chip away at your enormous dissent load while you spend every IC you can muster on building up your forces.

Panther 2 said:

I have built more units (infantry planes and tanks etc) that playing straight from 1940 game campaign.

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You definitely need to build as many units as possible, but you need to be very clear on what units are going to deliver best value. That can mean giving up building some types of units altogether until you have a large enough base force and sufficient IC to expand the mix. For my part, I build only Infantry, Armour, and Interceptors until I'm at war with the Western Allies. In truth I also begin building a big navy asap but that's a personal indulgence that I wouldn't recommend.

Panther 2 said:

It seems I can't get enough units to beat France or hold them back long enough at the Maignot Line.

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Beating the French is easy enough if, as you suggest, you can keep them from bursting through your Westwall. There are two ways you can go here - building fort levels (especially in Saabrucken and to a lesser extent Freiburg) or building ground units. Ground units offer greater long term benefits so I go with them. To go that route, however, you need manpower. To get manpower you need Partial Mobilisation, and to get Partial Mobilisation you need a DoW. So I declare war on some poor defenceless (and un-allied) minor as early as I can, roll over it as quickly as I can, make peace on the best terms I can to avoid racking up too many belligerence points, then shut down my mobilisation. When you do that you get the manpower of all your ground units reduced to around 30, but you don't lose all the mobilised manpower. Instead a good lump of it remains in your MP pool giving you the chance to start several quite long production runs early in 1936.

They in turn should deliver enough units to keep 18 or so brigaded infantry divisions in Saarbrucken and a dozen in each of Mainz and Freiburg, and that's generally enough to hold the line while you take care of Poland. Then it's on to Paris.

Panther 2 said:

In HOI 2 I have no trouble winning and building a reasonable sized army by 1939-1940 ...

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Which is no doubt why you came to DH in the first place. If you can engineer a German victory here it's sweet indeed.

Panther 2 said:

This version is so difficult to build units (takes forever) and France and England have massive armies never mind Belgium and Holland joining in !!

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Very true - so you need to pay particular attention to your strategy for invading the Low Countries. I find it best to try to pocket as many of the Dutch and Belgian units as I can in out of supply provinces and then leave just enough of my own units in place to keep them there until I've taken care of France. I can then mop them up at my leisure. I'm sure there are other approaches one could take however.

Panther 2 said:

In 1943 the Russians attack with 90 armies plus and it's all over, being given options to invade Denmark and Norway is a joke.

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This is definitely a biggie - so why wait until 1943? And, aggressive mongrel that I am, I've never waited long enough to see the invasion events for Denmark and Norway.

Panther 2 said:

The technology side is worth nothing, better equipment and tactics is one thing but odds of 10-1 against is another.

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It's worth something but not nearly as much as it is regular HoI. Again, I find it necessary to target my Tech research to fit my particular grand strategic approach. By sacrificing some areas of research I find I can get a couple of steps ahead in the ones that have greatest effect on the kind of battles I want to fight. Then, if I can get the Russians to oblige me and fight on my terms, that 10:1 ratio is thinned down considerably and my tech advantage starts to pay dividends.

Things aren't so cheery when the Americans turn up however,

Panther 2 said:

The upgrades take most of my IC points ...

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Upgrading is a trap. As Pang and others have frequently pointed out, in terms of simple bang for bucks it's often better to spend those ICs on additional 'out-of-date' units while confining upgrades to your spearhead forces.

Panther 2 said:

What am I doing wrong?

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Nothing. You're just on the steep part of the learning curve.

Panther 2 said:

Should I play as Russia or England Instead?

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Bite your tongue!

Must say, I haven't played 1933 in the latest patch, but it certainly used to be a lot harder than 1936 if you didn't know what tricks to use (EG: Build supplies, sell to anyone who will buy, get money, use money on events that build your IC up and/or reduce dissent). I believe there's an economy minister (I think he's a "mixed economy proponent" or something) that makes this better, but don't hold me to that, it's second-hand knowledge.

I would suggest starting in 1936. Some pointers (even if you spurn my advice on what scenario to play, these are still good):

Pre-war you will be low on manpower. Instead of raising your dissent to gain manpower through mobilisation decisions, just build low-manpower units. This means planes, tanks, and submarines.

Submarines don't really get any better from 1933-1939 (except for range, but they already have plenty by 1933), so it doesn't really matter when you build them, model-wise. A force of 60 submarines divided into two fleets of 30 will decimate anything that floats, so don't bother building more than that. (You might get away with just 30 if you want to be thrifty, but don't go below 30) Planes and tanks do get a lot better as time goes by, but don't let that stop you building them - but put them off as long as possible. If there's something else you could build towards your goals, do it before you go to planes and tanks, or you'll end up with them being very out-of-date by the time war breaks out. A powerful airforce and armoured units are well worth it.

You'll likely end up highly central-planning, which makes upgrading painful, so don't bother doing it. You get a lot more effectiveness out of just building more units and letting reinforcement IC upgrade your units slowly for you.

Finally, once war breaks out, it's time to crap yourself and let all this "building of high quality units" go. Infantry spam, my friend. Let your pre-war planes and tanks last you the war, and let your factories churn out rifles by the thousand. I've seen Germany lose often by focusing on tanks and planes to the exclusion of all else, but I've never seen them have too many infantry. Your infantry are much better than the French, British or Soviet ones (well, all your ground units are, in fact) so if you can manage even equal numbers you should destroy them.

Oh, and get yourself about five HQs or so, and remember each can cover a province and all those bordering it, so leave two provinces between HQ units.

Epaminondas said:

To get manpower you need Partial Mobilisation, and to get Partial Mobilisation you need a DoW. So I declare war on some poor defenceless (and un-allied) minor as early as I can, roll over it as quickly as I can, make peace on the best terms I can to avoid racking up too many belligerence points, then shut down my mobilisation. When you do that you get the manpower of all your ground units reduced to around 30, but you don't lose all the mobilised manpower. Instead a good lump of it remains in your MP pool giving you the chance to start several quite long production runs early in 1936.

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This is pretty "exploity", dude. You wouldn't get millions of Germans willingly flocking to the army to defend their nation if Germany invaded Luxembourg. They'd go "What is this crap, there are like two men in their army, why are they calling me up? I feel about TEN PERCENT UNHAPPY about this!"

But that's just my scruples talking. I think Darkest Hour definitely needs a "minor war" and a "major war" setting not only to prevent this kind of stuff, but also so the USSR doesn't just deploy it's entire army against Finland in the Winter War and instead uses some form of proportional response.

I was in your shoes when I first took up DH. As Germany, I usually build factories from '33 until '37, then I build a reasonable navy (submarines work just as well as CVs) while pumping out infantry.
France can be beaten by using only infantry. I don't recommend fortifying anything, just do an in-depth defense, give some room for the French doomstacks to move to less fortified territories. You don't have to DOW the Low Countries this way.
In my last game, I actively took part in the Spanish Civil War, declaring war on Republican Spain and transporting my troops to the southern part of the country, gaining an important ally against France in the coming war. The spanish attacks on the lightly defended southern provinces helped a great deal.
I also had a game where after the end of Czechoslovakia i released Slovakia as a puppet, then declared war on them and Hungary as well. Annexing them upset the French enough so that they DOWed me (I had just enough belligerence for them to do that), and I could beat France before I even set sights on Poland. Their lame attempt at an attack resulted in a 30-something division pocket.
If you prefer to do things the traditional way, I recommend using your mobile forces to move through Luxembourg and cut off the Maginot line from the rest of the country. Use 12-15 infantry divisions to move towards Paris, and use the rest of your forces (excluding those which were guarding your border with France to begin with) to quickly finish Belgium and the Netherlands off, then redeploy them as you see fit.

Regarding the building times, you should be at least on the "Partial Mobilization" level when beginning hostilities with the allies. Building times aren't that bad on that level. Don't forget to move towards Hawk Lobby.
Also, yeah most of the time I play the '33 scenario. More time to prepare is always good.

One interesting thing I haven't tried is to invade directly through the Maginot Line. For this you will need Super-Heavy Artillery attachments (-80% to fort penalties) and maybe Engineers as well. (they give bonuses to rough terrain, rivers, AND attacking forts)

That way you don't have to worry about the Belgians or the Dutch or even the might of Luxembourg.

Try out the Attack France First Strategy™ to get a feeling for Germany.

Epaminondas said:

To get manpower you need Partial Mobilisation, and to get Partial Mobilisation you need a DoW. So I declare war on some poor defenceless (and un-allied) minor as early as I can, roll over it as quickly as I can, make peace on the best terms I can to avoid racking up too many belligerence points, then shut down my mobilisation. When you do that you get the manpower of all your ground units reduced to around 30, but you don't lose all the mobilised manpower. Instead a good lump of it remains in your MP pool giving you the chance to start several quite long production runs early in 1936.

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Gort11 said:

This is pretty "exploity", dude. You wouldn't get millions of Germans willingly flocking to the army to defend their nation if Germany invaded Luxembourg. They'd go "What is this crap, there are like two men in their army, why are they calling me up? I feel about TEN PERCENT UNHAPPY about this!"

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Can't argue with that at all. It's beating the system rather than using it, and that's an exploit in anybody's book.

I'd dispute your projected popular reaction though. Given the internal climate of the time, Germany was hungry for anything nationally enhancing - and a military victory over anybody would likely have rallied enormous popular support. Especially as it would have been seen as Germany thumbing its nose at the French and would have been almost casualty free. In fact, in some of his wilder moments (and that's saying something) Hitler did contemplate looking around for just such an opportunity.

That doesn't change anything however. An exploit is an exploit is an exploit and it's not something I'd use in a multi-player game unless I really wanted to lose friends. Playing on my lonesome though, I like to keep myself amused.

Gort11 said:

I think Darkest Hour definitely needs a "minor war" and a "major war" setting not only to prevent this kind of stuff, but also so the USSR doesn't just deploy it's entire army against Finland in the Winter War and instead uses some form of proportional response.

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I think that's a top-notch idea. Tied to the level of manpower that could be mobilised it would make for a much more realistic rendering of what governments have to consider before charging to glory.

Gort11 said:

One interesting thing I haven't tried is to invade directly through the Maginot Line. For this you will need Super-Heavy Artillery attachments (-80% to fort penalties) and maybe Engineers as well. (they give bonuses to rough terrain, rivers, AND attacking forts)

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I've tried it and it didn't end well. The French have such a numerical advantage early that they don't need the Maginot at all. Even into 1939 they'll generally maintain an infantry advantage, so once the forts have gone you still need to slug it out toe to toe. And while I was doing that the Poles declared war and were dining in Berlin long before I could effectively disengage.

Epaminondas said:

I've tried it and it didn't end well. The French have such a numerical advantage early that they don't need the Maginot at all. Even into 1939 they'll generally maintain an infantry advantage, so once the forts have gone you still need to slug it out toe to toe. And while I was doing that the Poles declared war and were dining in Berlin long before I could effectively disengage.

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This is reason why good thing is to attack first Poland, than France Two front war was nigthmare of OKW...
Between 1939 and 1940 you can produce (all IC into production) a huge amount of infantry . Also taking assuming control of Hungary, Romunia ,and Bulgaria can help a lot -> just bring all their forces to Siegfred Line.
For French good strategy is "hammer and anvil". Use 80-100 divisions to attack french troops in one provice, and your allies forces in Maginot Line-> they will move their reserves to these provinces, and they cannot move forces in battle, instead of you
Cancel attack order of half of you troops and support your tanks. You goal is to dont lose these infantry battles before tank can encircle enemy.

And some things:
a) logistical bombings are far better than attacking ground troops -> your strategy is to encircle enemy, and destroy them after that. Less speed and org regain is a key
b) use one transports plane (you start one from beginning) to drop para on your "tank encirle route" on empty province. Enemy will attack them, and suprise ->
immediately attack with tanks-> they "gain" -37% in combat.

But I'm not uber pro expert. I won with France in 7th approach, after six different builds...

TBguy1992 said:

Part of the problem with this game is that it sticks almost too close to real History: this shows exactly how screwed Germany was in our world, and how surprising it is that they even lasted as long as they did. However, this does not help gameplay, does it? lol
.

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Respectfully disagree.

The OP mentioned the invasion of France which was IRL a piece of cake for Germany: won in 6 weeks with about 150K in casualties. Quite an amazing historical achievement. I find this is extremely difficult to replicate in DH, mainly because the Allied AI is IMO uber-aggressive which (in 1939-1940 at least) is not historical, esp with France, and sends massive armies of 40+ divisions across the Maginot Line forcing a player to keep a much bigger army than what was there historically or do something exploity (ie early DOW) which frankly I'm not interested in.

As for Barbarossa, the org is what really bothers me there. It's too easy for the Soviets to use their high org to push back your qualitatively superior divisions who enter a new province with virtually zero org. I feel that either German org should be higher or should regain org much faster when entering a new province.

Although not German specific the really really long battles in this game also I find hurts the Axis generally more so than anyone else. As the Axis powers you're on a tight schedule with regards to time and certain countries need to be defeated before they mobilize in full force and become too powerful. Amphibious landings seem to take forever; I've had one vs England that lasted 2 months. The Norway campaign though is what really bothers me, when I invade those units have almost no org vs my battle hardened divisions from France and the battle still takes a long time when the initial battle at least should end quickly and feel like blitzkrieg.

I understand it's good to have a challenge which DH undoubtedly provides but I think the challenge should be at least be somewhat connected to the way things happened historically and IMO this isn't the case here.

Almost makes me want to put the game on Easy. Almost.

Gort11 said:

One interesting thing I haven't tried is to invade directly through the Maginot Line. For this you will need Super-Heavy Artillery attachments (-80% to fort penalties) and maybe Engineers as well. (they give bonuses to rough terrain, rivers, AND attacking forts)

That way you don't have to worry about the Belgians or the Dutch or even the might of Luxembourg.

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You can just attack, no heavy artillery needed. This is actually way easier than the normal way but results in a lot more casualties.

TheQMeister said:

Respectfully disagree.

The OP mentioned the invasion of France which was IRL a piece of cake for Germany: won in 6 weeks with about 150K in casualties. Quite an amazing historical achievement. I find this is extremely difficult to replicate in DH, mainly because the Allied AI is IMO uber-aggressive which (in 1939-1940 at least) is not historical, esp with France, and sends massive armies of 40+ divisions across the Maginot Line forcing a player to keep a much bigger army than what was there historically or do something exploity (ie early DOW) which frankly I'm not interested in.

As for Barbarossa, the org is what really bothers me there. It's too easy for the Soviets to use their high org to push back your qualitatively superior divisions who enter a new province with virtually zero org. I feel that either German org should be higher or should regain org much faster when entering a new province.

Although not German specific the really really long battles in this game also I find hurts the Axis generally more so than anyone else. As the Axis powers you're on a tight schedule with regards to time and certain countries need to be defeated before they mobilize in full force and become too powerful. Amphibious landings seem to take forever; I've had one vs England that lasted 2 months. The Norway campaign though is what really bothers me, when I invade those units have almost no org vs my battle hardened divisions from France and the battle still takes a long time when the initial battle at least should end quickly and feel like blitzkrieg.

I understand it's good to have a challenge which DH undoubtedly provides but I think the challenge should be at least be somewhat connected to the way things happened historically and IMO this isn't the case here.

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You gotta be kidding me, Germany the best doctrine in game, and in RC2, manpower doctrine has a bug with morale which makes them super weak prior to 1941.

Effective Org, not flat org.

SpaceViking said:

You can just attack, no heavy artillery needed. This is actually way easier than the normal way but results in a lot more casualties.

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I have actually attacked the Maginot provinces as a pinning attack to keep the forces there so I can encircle them before. I've noticed that while the forts will make attacking take AGES for ground forces, air units aren't really affected, so a concentrated CAS attack with the French airforce suppressed might be key to victory.

Limith said:

You gotta be kidding me, Germany the best doctrine in game, and in RC2, manpower doctrine has a bug with morale which makes them super weak prior to 1941.

Effective Org, not flat org.

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Most of his complaints seem to stem from organisation loss on movement, which Germany is quite badly affected by (since their org is worth a lot due to their high GDE but as a result they don't get as much). You're correct about their doctrine being the best one nonetheless, however.

Gort11 said:

I have actually attacked the Maginot provinces as a pinning attack to keep the forces there so I can encircle them before. I've noticed that while the forts will make attacking take AGES for ground forces, air units aren't really affected, so a concentrated CAS attack with the French airforce suppressed might be key to victory.


Most of his complaints seem to stem from organisation loss on movement, which Germany is quite badly affected by (since their org is worth a lot due to their high GDE but as a result they don't get as much). You're correct about their doctrine being the best one nonetheless, however.

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The AI moves their troops non-stop and lose more org that way than you probably will. I've never found out of org to be an issue from movement. Have the low org vanguard stop to hold territory while a secondary vanguard moves in after your initial spearhead runs out of org. I usually stagger my forward units that way. Half of them regaining org and preventing cutoffs while the other half pushes.

Also, logistical strike is greatly underrated. It's really strong, stalls the enemy, prevents IC from rebuilding so fast, prevents airfields, AA, etc from repairing as fast as well. I've bombed UK to 16 effective IC (0 in mainland UK) through 3 months of logistical bombardment (12 STR) followed by runway catering, installation strike, strategic bombardment, then port strike.

If anything, gain air superiority and use STR to do logistical strike on the border with FRA when you take POL. Their org regen will be terrible and there is no way they will be able to consistently attack (that is to say you will lose the first battle when they are at full org, but you will regen much faster than they and you should be able to counterattack really easily) even if you have light defenses and they breakthrough. Defensive Focus already has a 10% Org regen penalty around 1939 while Mobility has a 10% org regen bonus. (Base org regen rate is 1.0 + (morale - 30)/100, there are other modifiers like logistics and how much org is missing). You don't even need to do pinning attacks since the defenders there won't make it out in time. Leave Belgium Infra intact, then once your done with Poland, rush through BEL which should have had intact infrastructure and encircle from northern France (which you should have also left as intact infra). You shouldn't need more than 2-3 STR to bomb Alsace-Lorraine into 0% Infra.

Limith said:

The AI moves their troops non-stop and lose more org that way than you probably will. I've never found out of org to be an issue from movement. Have the low org vanguard stop to hold territory while a secondary vanguard moves in after your initial spearhead runs out of org. I usually stagger my forward units that way. Half of them regaining org and preventing cutoffs while the other half pushes.

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But defender gain organization when lose battle and retreat, and attacker lose org whey he pursuit.
Great thing for defender, not great thing for attacker ( here Germany).

I can't imagine how german player can beat France, or Sovier Union in MP game...

In MP the German player would have a hard time because a human player is unlikely to make the historical mistakes the allies made early in the war and certainly not the mistakes the Soviets did.

Limith said:

The AI moves their troops non-stop and lose more org that way than you probably will.

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Really? I was under the impression that the AI actually regained organisation while they moved exactly because they'd otherwise blow it all moving foolishly.

I've never found out of org to be an issue from movement. Have the low org vanguard stop to hold territory while a secondary vanguard moves in after your initial spearhead runs out of org. I usually stagger my forward units that way. Half of them regaining org and preventing cutoffs while the other half pushes.

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Yeah, that's all very well and good, but it requires you to be able to move into the province without going to 0 organisation. There are a number of provinces in the game (Ottoman Empire in WW1, Siberia and China in WW2 in particular) where infantry can start their march and end up at zero organisation.