A Federation of "Equals" - A Danubian Federation Interative AAR

Thoctar said:

I agree with those views stated before me, this is a travesty! I have tolerated Venetian bigotry towards my people, I have tried to steer a clear path of tolerance and understanding with them, I co-administered Crete with them, but this! This goes too far. How many states in the Federation have arrested a politician merely for speaking their mind? The only other state that even attempted that was Silesia, and we all see where that went. Arpaio has done NOTHING wrong, and, whether I agree with him on every issue or not, I will defend his right to say those things! If this is the kind of attitude towards honesty and fair play Venice is going to have, the Istrian Condominium may not last in her administration much longer!

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I too agree that Councillor Arpaio's freedom of speech is being violated. The man was not advocating violence just expressing himself in the form of protest. As for the charge spreading libel and slander I hope you have indisputable evidence since libel is written and slander is spoken. On the matter I too support the Federal Treason Act.

Minister President Gabriel Soukup-Valenta of Bohemia

Guilu said:

While I have my doubts about the treason laws of some of our constituent states, I simply must oppose this bill in its present state. I see no issue with treason against a particular state, and you were indeed a traitor to Hungary when you founded the Slovak National Assembly. We all saw where that led, and though you have been cleared of all charges, blood is on your hands Sykora.

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What a crock. The only blood is on the hands of the Hungarian traitors. They were the ones who refused to accept the will of the Slovak people and they were the ones who rose up against the Federation. The Assembly did nothing that could be considered treason. It had not even met when the Magyar authorities decided to begin murdering its members. I refuse to engage in any further discussion on this topic as it will distract from the real issue at hand, which is the ridiculous treatment of treason in this Federation.

It is simply not possible to commit treason against an entity that is only part of a larger whole, and therefore peacefully advocating to take a different place within that whole also cannot be treason.

Guilu said:

Clause II is simply ridiculous; congress is not a court of justice and I am tired of this administration acting as though it is! We have judges, let them deal with it. Clause III and IV are also dangerous, we simply need to stop those who advocate secession or anarchy before action is indeed taken. Clause V is an unnecessary burden on the President, who once again has no place in the good execution of justice.

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I fully expect the Minister of Security to refer most cases to the Supreme Court, but in some cases (for example, the trial of a member of Congress) greater oversight may be necessary, and the option for it should exist. Advocating for secession from or rebellion against the Federation should still be a crime, but simply saying it should not be so great a crime as actually doing it, and there is nothing that anyone could say that could be worthy of death if they have not actually done anything. Therefore, I think that advocating for secession or rebellion or whatever else should be considered sedition rather than treason. Furthermore, Councillor Arpaio is being charged with treason because he has supposedly committed slander, and I fail to see how slander could fairly be considered treason even if he is guilty of it, which I seriously doubt.

Kraus walks into the room looking rather tired.

Greetings gentlemen! I have been reviewing the minutes of the Chambers, and have noticed that there have been issues with Krakow, Trieste, Venetian Councillors and apparently my titles. The last is just stupid so we can ignore that, but would someone mind giving me a quick summary on what is occurring?

~ Victor Kraus, NH, COE, GCM, CD, PSM, Minister of Finance, Vicedoge of Venice

Hello Councillor Kraus ((my character decided to bury the hatchet)),

So the Silesians ressurected their claim to Krakow, hinting for it to be issued federally. The Krakovians then said they don't want to be part of Silesia and instead want a referendum in South Silesia to see if the Poles of Silesia want to join Galicia. Trieste was handled on a state level between the Venetians and Austrians, but people want a referendum to have the people decide where they want to be. Finally the Venetian government was kind enough to charge both of it's councillors for treason.

Oh and your titles have been used as an example of autocratic and aristocratic dominance in the ADCP.

Tapscott said:

Kraus walks into the room looking rather tired.

Greetings gentlemen! I have been reviewing the minutes of the Chambers, and have noticed that there have been issues with Krakow, Trieste, Venetian Councillors and apparently my titles. The last is just stupid so we can ignore that, but would someone mind giving me a quick summary on what is occurring?

~ Victor Kraus, NH, COE, GCM, CD, PSM, Minister of Finance, Vicedoge of Venice

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Currently Councillor Arpaio has been arrested, it would seem he has been charged with spreading libel and slander. The man gave a strong, vehement protest against the recent negotiations made between Venice and Austria involving Trieste, which is what led to his arrest.

Keperry said:

It is simply not possible to commit treason against an entity that is only part of a larger whole, and therefore peacefully advocating to take a different place within that whole also cannot be treason.

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You knew perfectly well that your actions would lead to the Hungarian secession. As such, your organization was promoting anarchy and should have been shut down, had some other factors not tipped Hungary over the edge beforehand.

Keperry said:

I fully expect the Minister of Security to refer most cases to the Supreme Court, but in some cases (for example, the trial of a member of Congress) greater oversight may be necessary, and the option for it should exist.

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The trials of members of Congress is precisely when we should not be referring to the Congress. Justice must be impartial, and I don't trust the men in these chambers to be impartial. It's not our job, is it ? Otherwise, we wouldn't have parties and other such organizations.

Keperry said:

Furthermore, Councillor Arpaio is being charged with treason because he has supposedly committed slander, and I fail to see how slander could fairly be considered treason even if he is guilty of it, which I seriously doubt.

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The arcanes of venetian law are elusive, but I believe slandering the nobles is assimilated with slandering the government, since they compose it, and thus promoting its overthrowal. It sounds dubious, to be honest.

Dadarian said:

Hello Councillor Kraus ((my character decided to bury the hatchet)),

So the Silesians ressurected their claim to Krakow, hinting for it to be issued federally. The Krakovians then said they don't want to be part of Silesia and instead want a referendum in South Silesia to see if the Poles of Silesia want to join Galicia. Trieste was handled on a state level between the Venetians and Austrians, but people want a referendum to have the people decide where they want to be. Finally the Venetian government was kind enough to charge both of it's councillors for treason.

Oh and your titles have been used as an example of autocratic and aristocratic dominance in the ADCP.

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Kraus looks surprised, but quickly recovers.

Well. What a mess. My position on these matters is as follows. *ahem*

Silesia should abandon any claim on Krakow, and Galicia should abandon any claim on Silesia. This tit-for-tat arguing is pointless and damages the reputation of this Federation.

Trieste was, under my understanding, peacefully incorporated into Austria, or was agreed to. There is no need for the Federal Government to get involved.

I will see if my position as Vicedoge can aide Councillors Tiepolo and Arpio, as their arrests are supposedly legitimized by fabricated nonsense.

As for my titles. Charming. Just charming. How wonderful that my accomplishments are causing my fellow Councillors to denounce me as a reactionary despot, ruling over the A-DCP as my own little kingdom. How very charming.

~ Victor Kraus, NH, COE, GCM, CD, PSM, Minister of Finance, Vicedoge of Venice

((Thank god. Now I wont have to suffer being called Signore Vittorio by an upset Transylvanian! ))

Tapscott said:

Kraus looks surprised, but quickly recovers.

Well. What a mess. My position on these matters is as follows. *ahem*

Silesia should abandon any claim on Krakow, and Galicia should abandon any claim on Silesia. This tit-for-tat arguing is pointless and damages the reputation of this Federation.

Trieste was, under my understanding, peacefully incorporated into Austria, or was agreed to. There is no need for the Federal Government to get involved.

I will see if my position as Vicedoge can aide Councillors Tiepolo and Arpio, as their arrests are supposedly legitimized by fabricated nonsense.

As for my titles. Charming. Just charming. How wonderful that my accomplishments are causing my fellow Councillors to denounce me as a reactionary despot, ruling over the A-DCP as my own little kingdom. How very charming.

~ Victor Kraus, NH, COE, GCM, CD, PSM, Minister of Finance, Vicedoge of Venice

((Thank god. Now I wont have to suffer being called Signore Vittorio by an upset Transylvanian! ))

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Herr Kraus,

I believe you should order the release of Councillor Arpio in your role as vicedoge. A Venetian law expert has stated in hearings we held that you do not have that power because you are Vicedoge not Doge. Perhaps even if technically you do not have that power, your influence is so great that your order will be followed. As to Councillor Tiepolo, his case is more complicated and is a legitimate issue in Venice. he is accused of transferring Trieste to Austria without the proper consent of the Government of Venezia. So the issue of Trieste being legally incorporated into Austria is not settled because of this and the issue of the people of Trieste consent which was raised by Councillor Arpio.

I as Hochmiester of the Tuetonic order proclaim Victor Krauss as landmeister of Austria and Trapier of the order. May he serve with valour and integrity as his fellow knights.

atomicsoda said:

Herr Kraus,

I believe you should order the release of Councillor Tiepolo in your role as vicedoge. A Venetian law expert has stated in hearings we held that you do not have that power. But perhaps even if technically you do not have that power, your influence is great so that it will be followed. As to Councillor Arpio, his case is more complicated and is a legitimate issue in Venice. he is accused of transferring Trieste to Austria without the proper consent of the Government of Venezia. So the issue of Trieste being legally incorporated into Austria is not settled because of this and the issue of the people of Trieste consent which was raised by Councillor Tiepolo.

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Jako473 said:

I as Hochmiester of the Tuetonic order proclaim Victor Krauss as landmeister of germany and Trapier of the order. May he serve with valour and integrity as his fellow knights.

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I thought it was Tiepolo who signed over Trieste. In anycase, I do not indeed have the legal right to order the prisioners released, by I damn well can make life very uncomfortable for those who arrested our fellow Councillors! I will be using my position as Vicedoge, and my position in numerous Venetian orders, to allow for the release, or at least the fair trial of Councillors' Tiepolo and Arpio. Hopefully Venice will listen to her interm ruler.

Also, I accept Hochmeister Herman's offer and humbly thank him for making me part of a reborn Roman Catholic Teutonic Order. Though I must ask, don't you mean Landmeister of Austria rather than Germany? There is no single German state.

~ Victor Kraus, NH, COE, GCM, CD, PSM, Minister of Finance, Vicedoge of Venice

((Man I need Ab Ovo to be online. This is his master plan and I am buggered as if I am even meant to do anything! ))

Tapscott said:

I thought it was Tiepolo who signed over Trieste. In anycase, I do not indeed have the legal right to order the prisioners released, by I damn well can make life very uncomfortable for those who arrested our fellow Councillors! I will be using my position as Vicedoge, and my position in numerous Venetian orders, to allow for the release, or at least the fair trial of Councillors' Tiepolo and Arpio. Hopefully Venice will listen to her interm ruler.

~ Victor Kraus, NH, COE, GCM, CD, PSM, Minister of Finance, Vicedoge of Venice

((Man I need Ab Ovo to be online. This is his master plan and I am buggered as if I am even meant to do anything! ))

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((Whoops, I switched their names. Tiepolo-Ab Ovo signed over trieste))

atomicsoda said:

((Whoops, I switched their names. Tiepolo-Ab Ovo signed over trieste))

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((No worries then.))

Ah it was Tiepolo, not Arpio that signed over Trieste. I am unsure on what I can do for him, though I will try to get him pardoned. As for Arpio, I am hopeful the Venetians will listen to reason and release the man.

~ Victor Kraus, NH, COE, GCM, CD, PSM, Landmeister of Austria for, and Trapier of, the Teutonic Order, Minister of Finance, Vicedoge of Venice

((I am glad everyone recognizes my legacy... I really did what I wanted in my first 2 characters I was the guy nobody wanted to be, but he had to be their since it was entirely reasonable for the time. I'm trying not to cause so much chaos anymore but alas to no avail... I really got to give props to all you guys, dealing with my big stuff while Ab ovo secretly plots his next move))

If this federal treason act gets voted on will it interfere with the already passed monarchial subversion act? It does not say the Silesian bill is invalid so I am assuming that the treason act does not interfere with already made laws?

Oh and I as chancellor of silesia grudgingly recognizes Galicia as the sole government in krakow...

Jako473 said:

((I am glad everyone recognizes my legacy... I really did what I wanted in my first 2 characters I was the guy nobody wanted to be, but he had to be their since it was entirely reasonable for the time. I'm trying not to cause so much chaos anymore but alas to no avail... I really got to give props to all you guys, dealing with my big stuff while Ab ovo secretly plots his next move))

If this federal treason act gets voted on will it interfere with the already passed monarchial subversion act? It does not say the Silesian bill is invalid so I am assuming that the treason act does not interfere with already made laws?

Oh and I as chancellor of silesia grudgingly recognizes Galicia as the sole government in krakow...

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I am glad to hear this. Will the Chancellor/Councillors of Galicia renounce any claims they feel they have on Silesia as well?

~ Victor Kraus, NH, COE, GCM, CD, PSM, Landmeister of Austria for, and Trapier of, the Teutonic Order, Minister of Finance, Vicedoge of Venice

((Also Jako, you misspelt 'Teutonic Order' as 'Tuetonic Order' in your sig ))

Guilu said:

You knew perfectly well that your actions would lead to the Hungarian secession. As such, your organization was promoting anarchy and should have been shut down, had some other factors not tipped Hungary over the edge beforehand.

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That is ridiculous. How was anyone to predict such an insane overreaction? My organization never met and did not exist and therefore never promoted anything, but even if it had we would have promoted only the peaceful release of Slovakia as a state and certainly not the traitorous secession of Hungary, to which I have always been opposed.

Guilu said:

The arcanes of venetian law are elusive, but I believe slandering the nobles is assimilated with slandering the government, since they compose it, and thus promoting its overthrowal. It sounds dubious, to be honest.

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Then why must you defend it?

Jako473 said:

If this federal treason act gets voted on will it interfere with the already passed monarchial subversion act? It does not say the Silesian bill is invalid so I am assuming that the treason act does not interfere with already made laws?

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The entire point of the act is to overturn the ridiculous state laws on treason that already exist, so of course it will interfere with the Monarchial Subversion Act. The Silesian monarchy is not the Federation, so, like all the other states, it is impossible to commit treason against it, and any laws that say otherwise should be stricken down.

I assume that the Emergency National Council has inherited the President's power to pardon and therefore I ask its members to pardon Councillor Arpaio.

Keperry said:

The entire point of the act is to overturn the ridiculous state laws on treason that already exist, so of course it will interfere with the Monarchial Subversion Act. The Silesian monarchy is not the Federation, so, like all the other states, it is impossible to commit treason against it, and any laws that say otherwise should be stricken down.

I assume that the Emergency National Council has inherited the President's power to pardon and therefore I ask its members to pardon Councillor Arpaio.

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I do not remember the President ever having the powers to pardon people at will, Councillor Sykora. And if the power does exist, I ask that it be removed post-haste. Such powers undermine the entire judical system and threaten the very fabric of democracy.

~ Victor Kraus, NH, COE, GCM, CD, PSM, Landmeister of Austria for, and Trapier of, the Teutonic Order, Minister of Finance, Vicedoge of Venice

((Edit: Hey Jako. What is Trapier? There is not translation for it.
Edit Edit: Nevermind. Found out. ))

Keperry said:

That is ridiculous. How was anyone to predict such an insane overreaction? My organization never met and did not exist and therefore never promoted anything, but even if it had we would have promoted only the peaceful release of Slovakia as a state and certainly not the traitorous secession of Hungary, to which I have always been opposed.

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This is a display of criminal ignorance. The situation in Hungary was no secret to anyone; this is why I ordered your organization shut down. And in its declaration it declared its ambition to legislate over a state separate from Hungary, something which indeed constituted treason against the state. I didn't have time to show the whole Congress all our reports on the situation in Hungary and thought that what the newspaper reported was evidence enough that this powderkeg was about to blow up!

Keperry said:

Then why must you defend it?

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I am not defending the arrest of Councillor Arpaio; the one I am defending is your arrest. I am also defending the rights of the states to have their own laws, our duty to separate legislative and judicial power and to keep our citizens safe from harm. If someone confesses plans to kill another person, should we wait before he does it before arresting him ? Your proposition is inimaginably terrible.

The transfer of Triest from the State of Venezia to the State of Austria was both legal and binding. The Free State of Austria does not recognize, nor does it accept, the attempt by the Venetian Consiglio to overturn a treaty that was clearly authentic and is now being retroactively declared a forgery as a purely political act. Given their autocratic and high-handed attempt to pursue political prosecutions against their own Councillors, it is clear that the State of Venezia is not acting within the bounds of the law or of good sense.

I categorically reject all efforts to retroactively impose a law upon the Free State of Austria by the Conservative Party as a violation of states' rights and all legal principle. Actions cannot be made illegal after the fact; any attempt to make them so is blatant tyranny. I also consider the unilateral attempt to infringe upon Austria's rights without first appealing for the Free State's decision or consent to be thoroughly unpleasant and typically partisan behavior on Deputy Papp's part. While I respect the right of the Federal government to step in should events spiral out of control, they have and will not as far as Triest is concerned.

To that end, I propose a bill for review by the Austrian legislature.

The Triest Referendum Act
1. The Free State of Austria shall provide for a referendum in the Free City of Triest to determine the State of residence for that city.

2. The State of Austria, the State of Venezia, and the State of Carniola shall be the choices made available in the referendum.

3. To ensure fairness and impartiality, the Free State of Austria invites Federal election monitors to oversee the process of the referendum.

4. Should any option receive at least 60% of the vote, the referendum shall be concluded and the Free City of Triest shall be transferred to that State.

5. Should any option fail to secure a 60% majority, a run-off referendum will be held between the two choices with the highest percentage of votes. The choice with the majority of the votes in that referendum shall be adopted.

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~ Erich Vogel, Chancellor of Austria

etranger01 said:

I categorically reject all efforts to retroactively impose a law upon the Free State of Austria by the Conservative Party as a violation of states' rights and all legal principle. Actions cannot be made illegal after the fact; any attempt to make them so is blatant tyranny. I also consider the unilateral attempt to infringe upon Austria's rights without first appealing for the Free State's decision or consent to be thoroughly unpleasant and typically partisan behavior on Deputy Papp's part. While I respect the right of the Federal government to step in should events spiral out of control, they have and will not as far as Triest is concerned.

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I wasn't calling for it to be retroactively applied to this transfer, but rather calling for a referendum in some way which you have provided. I hope the austrian representatives will share your wisdom. States rights are one thing, but I honestly didn't think they would infringe on democracy.

((Papp hates you too. ))

When I was appointed as Vicedoge of Venice, I had a desire to do something memorable. This fiasco with Arpio and Tiepolo will probably be what my term is remembered for, unfortunately, but I still believe in doing something memorable! It is for this reason that I propose the joint-state bill, The Construction of the Krk Bridge Bill.

The Construction of the Krk Bridge Bill
This bill seeks to have a bridge that supports both civilian and locomotive movement established between the island of Krk, known as Veglia in Venetian but shall be referred to as Krk in this bill, and the mainland.

I. A bridge capable of supporting both Civilians and a locomotive will be built between the Island of Krk and the mainland.
II. This bridge shall be funded by both Croatia and Venice, as it is territory that is part of the Condominium.
III. Financial aid can be requested from the Federal Government, if approved by the Minister of Finance, if the sum required to construct the bridge overwhelms the states’ monetary capacity.
IV. Maintenance of this bridge shall fall to both Croatia and Venice, as long as the island remains part of the Condominium. If the island stops being part of the Condominium, then the issue of maintenance will be reviewed and altered as necessary.

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This bridge will connect to Croatia, as Krk is a hub of Croatian culture and art, and will expedite the distribution of wealth within Croatia, as well as encouraging local industry.

The Krk Bridge will stand as a symbol of prosperity, and will show the entire Federation how states are capable of working together to create great achievements. It will highlight the willingness of Venice and Croatia to work together, and will stand as a monument to the peace and prosperity that was achieved by the Dalmatian Condominium.

This bill is to be voted upon by the Representatives of the states of Croatia and Venice.

~ Victor Kraus, NH, COE, GCM, CD, PSM, Landmeister of Austria for, and Trapier of, the Teutonic Order, Minister of Finance, Vicedoge of Venice