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  1. #1

    Roman Culture?

    Does it exist? Do the people of the Byzantine Empire switch form greek to roman? (When you form the Roman Empire)

    I have just done that about 1 year ago, and nothing yet (Although I would not expect anything of the sort that quick anyway)

    Thanks allot!

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  2. #2
    No. There is no such a thing like Latin culture. Byzzies -> Romans stay Greek.

  3. #3
    I hate video games HabemusZlatan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakoramma View Post
    Does it exist? Do the people of the Byzantine Empire switch form greek to roman? (When you form the Roman Empire)

    I have just done that about 1 year ago, and nothing yet (Although I would not expect anything of the sort that quick anyway)

    Thanks allot!

    Jake
    I really hope they don't.
    Here be dragons

  4. #4
    The Romans historically favored Greek as their national culture in the end. You could always have your heir educated to a Latin culture, but that will take away from your ability to blind people, etc.

  5. #5
    Lt. General spartanlemur's Avatar
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    I added in a "Roman" culture under the Byzantine category, which I justify by assuming that:

    1:The Latin-speaking Vatican priests stay in the Vatican, as all of the knowledge and books there are in Latin. Greek speaking priests would have been useless to replace them with.
    2:That as a result the Roman clergy would remain largely Latin speaking. The Ecumenical patriarch may be unlikely to want to leave the Hagia Sophia and so his Greek wisemen would mostly stay in Constantinople (assuming you have moved your seat to Rome) - he doesn't anyway, as the patriarch of Rome is responsible for the West
    3:That your children would be brought up bilingual anyway, as they get taught by Latin priests and Greek nobles.
    4:That the Italian lesser nobility would remain. Yes, Greeks would rule the roost, but property would not be confiscated because people spoke Italian, hence there would be a language divide between Upper nobility and lower nobility.
    5:That ultimately, the Emperor may decide that Latin will be the Lingua Franca between Italians and Greeks, because IT IS the true Roman language (despite what absurd Byz fanboys say), as it was the native language of actual Rome: the city itself. Due to it's almost mythical reputation and presence in the oldest of Roman records, the Emperor may demand more respect by speaking it whenever possible. He would encourage Greeks and Italians to both learn it (a language they can both accept as more Roman than their own and therefore get behind).
    6:Latin therefore becomes the official language of the Roman nobility (although the lower classes still speak Greek, Italian and various other regional languages.

    I mean why do scientists use Latin today? Why did Napoleon use Eagle banners? Reverence for the language and culture of Rome.

  6. #6
    Lt. General DamianGrim's Avatar
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    Well, some kind of melting pot for Roman Empire would be cool. Greco-Roman culture, for example. But I guess, I can mod it in...

  7. #7
    Lt. General spartanlemur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamianGrim View Post
    Well, some kind of melting pot for Roman Empire would be cool. Greco-Roman culture, for example. But I guess, I can mod it in...
    That would be great. I actually did one myself using the English melting pot as a base but couldn't get it to work - blank slides show up
    Took me a whole day to do as well (still learning the ropes of events modding)

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by spartanlemur View Post
    I mean why do scientists use Latin today? Why did Napoleon use Eagle banners? Reverence for the language and culture of Rome.
    Scientists use Latin today because it is the so called "dead" language, doesn't change anymore.
    The French did have heavy influence from the Romans, even after they sacked it. There aren't many noble animals to use as banner, could you believe that America might have had the Turkey as its symbol?

    I would really want to have a Roman culture since:
    The Romans may have adopted major parts of Greek culture, but they changed it to their whim.
    It was one heck of an empire and deserves proper respect.
    It seems awkward to be Greek while still being in charge of the Roman Empire.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Diruk View Post
    It seems awkward to be Greek while still being in charge of the Roman Empire.
    Not really. Constantinople is New Rome, and it is Greek.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by spartanlemur View Post
    5:That ultimately, the Emperor may decide that Latin will be the Lingua Franca between Italians and Greeks, because IT IS the true Roman language
    A Lingua Franca only spoken by an elite handful is not actually a Lingua Franca. And issuing an edict can't magically make two different language cultures adopt to a dead language and unite their cultures just because it might conveniently match up to a player's nostalgic preference for the classical era.

    In the time of the game, Latin culture is dead. The Eastern Empire was thoroughly greek even before latin was abandoned as the language of administration. As far as imperial scholarship, imperial law, imperial commerce, and imperial administration goes, the empire in this time frame is 100% greek.

    It is understandable that players lump "Rome" into the more recognizable box of what it was under the classical era, but in this era "greek" and "roman" mean the same thing. The byzantines saw their greek culture as the pinnacle of Roman culture. This idea that you and others have that being Roman is defined in speaking Latin is not at all an idea that the Byzantine Romans themselves bought into whatsoever. The notion that greek victory and greek legitimacy would lead to the newly vindicated greeks abandoning their own language in favour of clumsily resurrecting a dead one in order to make better use of redundant archives in a city that is a dirty shadow of what it used to be and completely inferior to Constantinople, and then impose that language on the rest of their empire out of nostalgic whimsey, and that this would successfully result in a linguistic/cultural shift... is categorically absurd, and really not how culture works.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Diruk View Post
    Scientists use Latin today because it is the so called "dead" language, doesn't change anymore.
    Its probably more of a thing of tradition.

  12. #12
    When it gets down to it the two original eastern emporers spoke latin just like the two western emporers (rome had 4 emporers at one time). With roman rulers being so notoriously egotistical i cant imagine that they'ed fully forget the glorious mother tongue. Even if they are greek cultured they probably all still spoke latin for court affairs. lets also try to remember that in this point of history latin wasn't dead yet. It was dying but it was still widely used as a diplomatic language just like french. This is very much well and truely PRE vatican 2 so all the clergy despite their local cultures also had to know latin and used it to communicate both the scripture and with other clergyman when their own languages where different

  13. #13
    Greek was the trade language of the Roman Empire throughout pretty much the entirety of its existence, due to the fact that most of the states conquered by Rome were familiar with it already.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by spartanlemur View Post
    I added in a "Roman" culture under the Byzantine category, which I justify by assuming that:

    1:The Latin-speaking Vatican priests stay in the Vatican, as all of the knowledge and books there are in Latin. Greek speaking priests would have been useless to replace them with.
    2:That as a result the Roman clergy would remain largely Latin speaking. The Ecumenical patriarch may be unlikely to want to leave the Hagia Sophia and so his Greek wisemen would mostly stay in Constantinople (assuming you have moved your seat to Rome) - he doesn't anyway, as the patriarch of Rome is responsible for the West
    3:That your children would be brought up bilingual anyway, as they get taught by Latin priests and Greek nobles.
    4:That the Italian lesser nobility would remain. Yes, Greeks would rule the roost, but property would not be confiscated because people spoke Italian, hence there would be a language divide between Upper nobility and lower nobility.
    5:That ultimately, the Emperor may decide that Latin will be the Lingua Franca between Italians and Greeks, because IT IS the true Roman language (despite what absurd Byz fanboys say), as it was the native language of actual Rome: the city itself. Due to it's almost mythical reputation and presence in the oldest of Roman records, the Emperor may demand more respect by speaking it whenever possible. He would encourage Greeks and Italians to both learn it (a language they can both accept as more Roman than their own and therefore get behind).
    6:Latin therefore becomes the official language of the Roman nobility (although the lower classes still speak Greek, Italian and various other regional languages.

    I mean why do scientists use Latin today? Why did Napoleon use Eagle banners? Reverence for the language and culture of Rome.
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    Here be dragons

  15. #15
    Why would the Greeks change culture in a renamed Byzantine Empire? Greek was the language of the East long before the Romans conquered it, and centuries of Roman rule did nothing to change it. Besides, from the perspective of the Greeks, Byzantium never stopped being Rhomaion. The "Restore the Roman Empire" decision just represents the return of the empire to its classical borders.

  16. #16
    Lt. General spartanlemur's Avatar
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    All I'm saying is that *if* the Byzantines retook Rome and *if* the sitting emperor was a romanticist who revered the tales of the Latin speaking emperors of the past and moved his capital to Rome (which is unlikely anyway), he would probably (given what we know about his personality) try and see a return to the use of Latin, especially if he knew it himself.
    Why would he move his capital to Rome anyway? It all comes down to the individual, and restoring the old capital reflects nostalgia of the ancient rulers.
    I mean he'd walk the streets of Rome and on all the monuments see Latin inscriptions. On all the great masterpieces this language would be there, elevating it's status.

    Another question: why do we revere the Latin-speaking Western Roman Empire today? Because Latin speaking rulers saw the rise of the empire and Greek speaking rulers saw it's final demise. Granted language has nothing to do with *why* it fell, but that doesn't affect the fact that each language is associated with different parts of Roman history. So if a Greek speaking Byzantine emperor reconquered Rome and moved his capital there, there is a very good possibility that he did so out of nostalgia himself (a similar nostalgia which those of us who admire Latin and ancient Rome today feel), and would therefore put Latin above Greek.

    Why did the English nobility start adding French words and grammar to the language/accent in the 19th century (hence why RP now doesn't pronounce R's)? Because they were arrogant and didn't want to speak in the same style/language as the "lower classes". Who's to say this might not have happened in a restored Roman Empire?

    Just to clear things up: the emperor might himself not speak Latin as he may not know it. He may, however, tell his children tales of ancient Roman glory and let Latin priests teach them Latin. His heir would probably do what the father was linguistically unable to do!

  17. #17
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    I don't think that Greek culture means that they necessarily don't speak Latin or revere the past, I'm guessing all of the high nobility spoke Latin as well as Greek. It's just that Greek is the first and primary culture, especially of the masses. That's the problem, I think, that all of a sudden people from Egypt to France would start speaking Greek, which really wouldn't be the case. I think it would be cool if Latin cultures could spread in the West, like Castilian, Catalan and Portuguese in Spain even under the Roman Empire, and that Latin cultures wouldn't be assimilated into Greek. It would make the most sense if the Roman Empire had it's own cultural events and be exempt from the standard ones. Their events could allow assimilation to a neighboring Greek or Latin cultured province, and Latin provinces wouldn't assimilate. This would allow Latin to spread back through Hispania and Greek through the Levant and Egypt. Just a thought, I guess, kind of a compromise because I doubt Greek culture would suddenly take over the West.

  18. #18
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    It has been 500 years since Justinian I, who was the last Roman Emperor to speak Latin as a primary language. While I want to see it, I think it should cause large problems and rebellion. It should basically cost you the whole empire in one way or another and give you income malice for all of the trade difficulties and tax witholdings from angry lords. I think it should take you about 100 years and 3-5 generations to completely Latinize the nobility and another hundred or so to significantly impress it upon the population. If someone wants to mod this in, I think it would be a great challenge. You would spend decades fighting civil wars and trying to either convert vassals or replace them.
    Last edited by James_Manring; 27-10-2012 at 10:55.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by James_Manring View Post
    It has been 500 years since Justinian I, who was the last Roman Emperor to speak Latin as a primary language. While I want to see it, I think it should cause large problems and rebellion. It should basically cost you the whole empire in one way or another and give you income malice for all of the trade difficulties and tax witholdings from angry lords. I think it should take you about 100 years and 3-5 generations to completely Latinize the nobility and another hundred or so to significantly impress it upon the population. If someone wants to mod this in, I think it would be a great challenge. You would spend decades fighting civil wars and trying to either convert vassals or replace them.
    I don't think it needs to become a language of the general populace outside of Rome (where the wealthiest and best educated would live if you move your capital there). It would only realistically stand a chance of being the language of the nobility, as they would be able to learn tongues which their parents are not familiar with more easily. I would see it more as an arrogance thing for the upper classes to separate themselves from the peasants on the back of a growing and prosperous empire which is beaming with pride after having restored it's home under its banner. It would be an administrative language (as it was historically) and one learned as proof of education and class (many private schools in the UK emphasise Ancient Greek and Latin).

    There is no need for Latin culture to become the language of the peasants, and in fact little need for it to spread outside of Italia, where as I described above it might play an important role in the cohesion of the nobility. It could fall under the Byzantine culture category so it receives less of a negative modifier with Greeks and would also be a great way to show how an emperor who has moved his capital to Rome would have become more disconnected from the East and culturally more similar to Italians (through their old-new common tongue).

    It would be far better than having the Western and Eastern empire all speaking Greek, which makes things waaaaayyy to easy. The East and West split for a reason, and more cultural clash would pronounce this.
    Last edited by spartanlemur; 27-10-2012 at 13:36.

  20. #20
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    Why not just assume that the Greek culture at the period of a resurgant Rome would slowly accomadate the change, as most cultures do? Surely you don't need a whole different culture/language to represent it.

    As for Lingua Franca in science, Latin was more for just naming something (usually just for taxonomy in the older sense from what I recall)... they do not however do not come together to speak in Latin. Or I would have surely been screwed when going for my science courses in University.

    In the end, I just assume that my culture would be 'Greek' but in a sense different from the modern Greeks... and it is my given understanding that the Greek is a modern term and most Greeks of the ERE era timeframe still referred themselves to as 'romanoi' or something along those lines.
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