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Thread: The Great Schism

  1. #1
    Second Lieutenant Craig Macleod's Avatar
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    Question The Great Schism

    Can you mend the Great Schism as the Catholic Church or only as the Orthodox Church?

  2. #2
    Only the Orthodox Church can currently mend it via taking over rome and such

    but, they said in the stream today they are also thinking about eventually working more on the Catholic Church, theocracies and such and said they might do something so the Catholics can do it too

    but it makes sense in a way, because how would the catholics end the schism? They would need all the Patriarchs to be agree that the Pope is above them! It would require taking all the ancient sees, which would seem to be harder to do than is worth!

  3. #3
    Second Lieutenant Craig Macleod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnarr View Post
    Only the Orthodox Church can currently mend it via taking over rome and such

    but, they said in the stream today they are also thinking about eventually working more on the Catholic Church, theocracies and such and said they might do something so the Catholics can do it too

    but it makes sense in a way, because how would the catholics end the schism? They would need all the Patriarchs to be agree that the Pope is above them! It would require taking all the ancient sees, which would seem to be harder to do than is worth!
    Well I'm sure many players would at least like the option even if it is a hassle. And I don't see how it's that much more difficult for them all to agree the Pope is above them than almost every other nation in Europe to accept the Pope is just another Patriarch?

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    First Lieutenant Cojack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Macleod View Post
    Can you mend the Great Schism as the Catholic Church or only as the Orthodox Church?
    Yes, by military submission and proselytism

  5. #5
    Second Lieutenant Craig Macleod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cojack View Post
    Yes, by military submission and proselytism
    Haha, I've already done that though!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Macleod View Post
    Well I'm sure many players would at least like the option even if it is a hassle. And I don't see how it's that much more difficult for them all to agree the Pope is above them than almost every other nation in Europe to accept the Pope is just another Patriarch?
    Well it is easier to say that the Vicar of Christ is no longer truly the Vicar of Christ if he loses his apostolic see to the christians that claim he is just another patriarch. (As in, why would God let the Catholic Church lose its apostolic see in rome if the gates of hell will never prevail against it?)
    I just imagine it would be harder to do it the other way around in the way that all the apostolic sees are equal so if one falls it is not so bad because you still have the sees of andrew the first called, the see of James the brother of the lord, the See of Peter in Antioch... whilst the Catholic church just has one see basically, that of rome so it is easier to illegitimize if it fell.

    But this is all hypothetical, what I basically just wanted to say is the developers said they might do something in the future to make it so catholics can mend the schism (by a decision of some sort).

  7. #7
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    What is really funny is that, technically speaking, if the orthodox patricarchs reunite both churches, they would become Catholic by definition, as "catholic" is the greek for "universal"

  8. #8
    Second Lieutenant Craig Macleod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnarr View Post
    Well it is easier to say that the Vicar of Christ is no longer truly the Vicar of Christ if he loses his apostolic see to the christians that claim he is just another patriarch. (As in, why would God let the Catholic Church lose its apostolic see in rome if the gates of hell will never prevail against it?)
    I just imagine it would be harder to do it the other way around in the way that all the apostolic sees are equal so if one falls it is not so bad because you still have the sees of andrew the first called, the see of James the brother of the lord, the See of Peter in Antioch... whilst the Catholic church just has one see basically, that of rome so it is easier to illegitimize if it fell.

    But this is all hypothetical, what I basically just wanted to say is the developers said they might do something in the future to make it so catholics can mend the schism (by a decision of some sort).
    In real life though didn't they all fall to Islam except Rome?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Macleod View Post
    In real life though didn't they all fall to Islam except Rome?
    That is a good point.

    But the muslims are not the same as the catholics or orthodox in that the muslims did not force the patriarchs to leave, they tolerated them and let them stay. So you could not really say the devil prevailed against the church because it was still there, only the empire was gone. This is different because when, for instance, the Catholics obtained the cities of Antioch and Jerusalem they banished the patriarchs of those sees for some time. Same with Constantinople in the fourth crusade. The thing is after the latin kingdom and crusader kingdoms were defeated the muslims allowed the orthodox patriarchs to come back (or in constantinople, the byzantine empire allowed the patriarch to come back). From that point there was a catholic and orthodox patriarch for those sees. (for instance the roman catholic patriarchate of constantople created in the fourth crusade was only recently revoked). For this reason it is assumed if the orthodox had taken rome the pope would have been expelled.

    But even despite of all of this, Russia still has claims that Saint Andrew christianized some of crimea and kiev. Also, Moscow was created a Patriarchate. So even if Russia was the only place left with orthodoxy, the promise that the gates of hell will never prevail could still be seen as fufilled by orthodox.

    In the end, I don;t like how the mend the schism works anyway, i find instant conversion to be silly, it should be much slower. The pope could always take back rome! he would just have to do it within a 100 years or so :P

  10. #10
    Second Lieutenant Craig Macleod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnarr View Post
    That is a good point.

    But the muslims are not the same as the catholics or orthodox in that the muslims did not force the patriarchs to leave, they tolerated them and let them stay. So you could not really say the devil prevailed against the church because it was still there, only the empire was gone. This is different because when, for instance, the Catholics obtained the cities of Antioch and Jerusalem they banished the patriarchs of those sees for some time. Same with Constantinople in the fourth crusade. The thing is after the latin kingdom and crusader kingdoms were defeated the muslims allowed the orthodox patriarchs to come back (or in constantinople, the byzantine empire allowed the patriarch to come back). From that point there was a catholic and orthodox patriarch for those sees. (for instance the roman catholic patriarchate of constantople created in the fourth crusade was only recently revoked). For this reason it is assumed if the orthodox had taken rome the pope would have been expelled.

    But even despite of all of this, Russia still has claims that Saint Andrew christianized some of crimea and kiev. Also, Moscow was created a Patriarchate. So even if Russia was the only place left with orthodoxy, the promise that the gates of hell will never prevail could still be seen as fufilled by orthodox.

    In the end, I don;t like how the mend the schism works anyway, i find instant conversion to be silly, it should be much slower. The pope could always take back rome! he would just have to do it within a 100 years or so :P
    Haha, I just that once the schism is mended it should just be called Christianity, otherwise it's just not much of a schism mend, just one side losing!

  11. #11
    Field Marshal Ruwaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Macleod View Post
    Well I'm sure many players would at least like the option even if it is a hassle. And I don't see how it's that much more difficult for them all to agree the Pope is above them than almost every other nation in Europe to accept the Pope is just another Patriarch?
    At this moment I've nothing more to add than I agree!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnarr View Post
    (As in, why would God let the Catholic Church lose its apostolic see in rome if the gates of hell will never prevail against it?)
    This is not so much a dilemma as you seem to be assuming. St. Augustine already dealt with this "problem" directly in the early 400s when he wrote "City of God" after the Visigoths sacked Rome and people were shocked.

    The basic thrust is that earthly kingdoms will rise and fall, but the city of god is eternal. The focus on Christianity should be on the eternal rather than on earthly politics. It would be difficult to overstate St. Augustine's influence on Christians. He's considered a Doctor of the Church in the west and given special honors in the Orthodox church as well.

    In other words, Rome had been taken before. It would be dealt with fine by the Catholics. (Having a Roman emperor set up an orthodox anti-pope and declare the schism over, however, would be a novel challenge....)

  13. #13
    Absent Minded Orinsul's Avatar
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    Youve always been able to mend it as catholic, in the only way thats reasonable, historical or desirably, by converting all the orthodox. No grand action would close it, bringing all the schismatics back into the true church is the way itd work, and the game has always let you do that.

    Just say a patriarch acknowledged the supremacy of Rome, would that mean all under him would? or just that hed be running a risk of losing his job. If all the Patriarchs did then chances are some prince would just declare a politically ambitious bishop the new patriarch as soon as he wanted something the church hindered as princes used protestantism later on.
    And even if the gap was closed politically and theologically, in tradition, culture, etc everything else that religion represents in the game the west and east would still have thousands of differences that would amount to the same thing so might as well be represented as schismatic, maybe with a global modifier represent politically collaboration and unity, but you wouldnt want any religion =s to change.
    The only thing thats plausible is for each character to be individually converted and assimilated. And the game already has everything in place to do it. Anything else would just be a flashy gimmick.
    Last edited by Orinsul; 17-10-2012 at 04:45.
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