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Thread: Factions Overpowered?

  1. #21
    Is there a faction type for "loyal to the crown"-vassals ? Cause I always felt that that was missing.

    (Sorry if i am a bit off-topic. But i guess it would balance the OPs problem, too, if they exist)

  2. #22
    I'm having some difficulty with the factions feature as well. I will admit that there is a good possibility that it is due in part to my being a complete n00b, but I want to flesh out my beefs with it nonetheless. Let me outline what my kingdom looks like at the moment. I started out as a count in Northern Sardinia in 1066 and I've steadily worked my way up to being the king of Africa, Jerusalem, Gallicia, Sicily, and Aquitaine. Also the game was started in patch 1.06. The faction that has caused me the most headaches thus far is the independence faction.

    No or little pre-emptive action - As a monarch there are no direct ways that I can deal with a faction. When you click on the intrigue tab and go to factions it only shows you the name of the faction and who is in it. There are no direct controls on that tab. Furthermore, there are little or no actions that I can take against members of the factions that don't cause problems for my other vassals. So if one of my Dukes is a member of the faction I can't imprison him for being a member of a faction opposed to the crown without the added headache of a -40 relationship with the rest of my vassals - thus making them more likely to join the independence faction. Revoking titles and assassinations from the diplomacy screen meet with a similar problem. Excommunication is sort of an option except frequently my vassals have a good enough relationship with the Pope to keep from being excommunicated. If it were otherwise I could imprison my vassals with a little more impunity. Assassination as a plot is also an option but then I deal with the fact that the vassals of my vassals like their direct liege more than they like me. Also, even if I can manage to gather the backing for an assassination plot I'd have to be killing something like 3-4 dukes a year to avoid yearly revolts and I'm lucky if I can pull off one assassination plot per year while also abusing save games.

    Happy vassals join factions - I've had a vassal with a +49 opinion of me join a faction. It seems odd that the opinion feature is supposed to be a core feature of the game, but seems utterly powerless to counter the faction feature.

    Fast growth of factions - As I've gone back and played the same save a few times I keep getting huge factions with little or not passage of time. The save starts in February with the faction being non-existent, and by April or June it has 7-8 members the majority of which are powerful dukes.

    Unrealistic immunities - In any modern day state there are laws to keep people from overthrowing the government, and very few people seem to care when modern states throw these people in prison. Is it different for medieval societies? Are monarchs supposed to tolerate subversive behavior and let their domains be torn apart by civil war?

    Old save unplayable - not in the sense that the game won't boot up old saves but that I've reloaded this same old save five times now and gotten the same result.

    Understand, I don't actually oppose the idea of factions as a concept. It makes a lot of sense, but I've also noticed that neighboring countries having the same problem. For example about a month into that old save France and the HRE both get torn apart by civil wars. I realize that civil wars happened occasionally in the middle ages and frequently for less than kosher reasons, but they didn't happen every year and as far as I know they weren't generally perpetrated by vassals that had high opinions of their monarch.

  3. #23
    The only issue I've had with factions so far is in one game as Byzantium a bunch of Anatolian and Armenian vassals declared independence while the Seljuks were right there. I mean, it would be one thing if a Greek or Serbian or Bulgarian vassal rebelled, but it's suicidal in the long term even if I wasn't the one who would retake them. They might not like me, but at least they have land and safety.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TemplarKommando View Post
    No or little pre-emptive action - As a monarch there are no direct ways that I can deal with a faction. When you click on the intrigue tab and go to factions it only shows you the name of the faction and who is in it. There are no direct controls on that tab. Furthermore, there are little or no actions that I can take against members of the factions that don't cause problems for my other vassals. So if one of my Dukes is a member of the faction I can't imprison him for being a member of a faction opposed to the crown without the added headache of a -40 relationship with the rest of my vassals - thus making them more likely to join the independence faction. Revoking titles and assassinations from the diplomacy screen meet with a similar problem. Excommunication is sort of an option except frequently my vassals have a good enough relationship with the Pope to keep from being excommunicated. If it were otherwise I could imprison my vassals with a little more impunity. Assassination as a plot is also an option but then I deal with the fact that the vassals of my vassals like their direct liege more than they like me. Also, even if I can manage to gather the backing for an assassination plot I'd have to be killing something like 3-4 dukes a year to avoid yearly revolts and I'm lucky if I can pull off one assassination plot per year while also abusing save games.

    Happy vassals join factions - I've had a vassal with a +49 opinion of me join a faction. It seems odd that the opinion feature is supposed to be a core feature of the game, but seems utterly powerless to counter the faction feature.

    Fast growth of factions - As I've gone back and played the same save a few times I keep getting huge factions with little or not passage of time. The save starts in February with the faction being non-existent, and by April or June it has 7-8 members the majority of which are powerful dukes.

    Unrealistic immunities - In any modern day state there are laws to keep people from overthrowing the government, and very few people seem to care when modern states throw these people in prison. Is it different for medieval societies? Are monarchs supposed to tolerate subversive behavior and let their domains be torn apart by civil war?

    Old save unplayable - not in the sense that the game won't boot up old saves but that I've reloaded this same old save five times now and gotten the same result.

    Understand, I don't actually oppose the idea of factions as a concept. It makes a lot of sense, but I've also noticed that neighboring countries having the same problem. For example about a month into that old save France and the HRE both get torn apart by civil wars. I realize that civil wars happened occasionally in the middle ages and frequently for less than kosher reasons, but they didn't happen every year and as far as I know they weren't generally perpetrated by vassals that had high opinions of their monarch.
    1) Re Pre-emptive actions: The "uncover plots" action for spymaster has been changed to "scheme". You can set your spymaster on vassals in factions and blackmail them into leaving factions. The probability of this happening is also quite decent.

    2) Re Happy Vassals joining factions: You need vassals to be more happy than +49 to stop them. I am not sure what the actual limit is, but they have mentioned this in the DD that deals with faction... if you have super happy vassals then they won't join factions.

    3) Re Fast growth: You can appease them by, say lowering crown authority, introducing laws in their favour, giving them patronages etc... earlier, the King was too powerful, now the vassals have also gained power. It is hard for King to be too abusive towards vassals, and it is equally hard for the King to just expand the realm without worrying about the situation with vassals. It adds a new dimension to the game...

    4) Re Immunities: I have two words for you: Magna Carta. The baron formed a faction and forced the King of England to sign the thing that limited his authority (and basically stopped England from ever turning into an Absolute Monarchy seen almost everywhere else in Europe at some point or other). Besides, vassals are not breaking any law by just demanding things. They are breaking law by going to war, after which they become traitors...

    5) Re old saves: Yeah, the old saves suck for this reason... I'd imagine on newer games, you'd not have that much amount of blobbing in the first place unless the monarch was exceptionally skilled.

  5. #25
    I've only played for about an hour with v 1.07 with some of time spent exploring the interface and so far I like the factions. I find it much more intereseting than just throwing gold at vassals who are threats and clicking end plot all the time. In my empire, I've assinated one member of the faction ending a rebellion against one of my Kings (hopefully incresing his loyalty). I'm hoping to find ground to imprison some members of the faction with some other justification so I don't incur any penalties. Rather than starting a holy war or pressing a claim to grow the empire, I find there is much more to managing the empire with factions than without them.

  6. #26
    Caudillo thekinguter's Avatar
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    They just saved my save game. I was playing as the Wettin dukes of Meissen in 1190. The Emperor had enacted Absolute Crown Authority, Primogeniture and had Excommunicated me. I had given up on that save, but I wanted to test out the new mechanics so I started it up today after installing the new patch. 50 years of plotting and we are now in a Gavelkind Limited Crown Authority HRE and the italians are all independent after a massive league war. Thanks Paradox!

    Also, I had this issue where Navarra had inherited France and was slowly de-juring it and culturizing it. 5 years of gameplay with factions on, and there is now a patch of independent french dukes in France. Thanks again Paradox!

    Unfortunately, I can't seem to start the Enact Elective law faction.
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  7. #27
    @Sir Tornado: Thanks for the tip about the Spymaster, I hadn't realised he had a new action. Maybe I just need to explore the Factions feature a bit more to get the hang of it. Still, it seems a bit odd that a vassel that has a positive opinion of you would be prepared to eventually make war on you. Maybe what they could do is add an extra calculation to the faction power percentage that takes into account opinions, so a vassel with a relationship of, say, 50 only contributes 50% of the faction power that they would normally contribute and a vassel with 75 relationship would only contribute 25% of their total.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Helios Ra View Post
    The only issue I've had with factions so far is in one game as Byzantium a bunch of Anatolian and Armenian vassals declared independence while the Seljuks were right there. I mean, it would be one thing if a Greek or Serbian or Bulgarian vassal rebelled, but it's suicidal in the long term even if I wasn't the one who would retake them. They might not like me, but at least they have land and safety.
    I have this problem too. Antioch and Mesopotamia are constant sources of independence movements, even though independence for them just means immediate Muslim conquest. I think that stronger and more unruly vassals adds a lot of fun to the game, but it's pretty frustrating when your vassals don't seem to have any desire for self-preservation.

  9. #29
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    Im putting the game away for now, as factions really turn me away from enjoying the game. Its honestly not that fun and seems just a "lets make the game harder", even though the game is hard enough as it is, and it doesn't help like explained above, the illogical decisions vassals make. Id love playing this with the whole factions thing scrapped.

    For the first time I saw the HRE collapse early in the game, and pretty much everyone was suffering in the game from in fighting.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAoD View Post
    Im putting the game away for now, as factions really turn me away from enjoying the game. Its honestly not that fun and seems just a "lets make the game harder", even though the game is hard enough as it is, and it doesn't help like explained above, the illogical decisions vassals make. Id love playing this with the whole factions thing scrapped.

    For the first time I saw the HRE collapse early in the game, and pretty much everyone was suffering in the game from in fighting.
    Hmmm... I don't like the fact that factions declare independence even when it's illogical for them since they'll just be conquered by the Muslims. I guess I'll wait to purchase this DLC then; not that I would be able to play anyways. Way too busy with school.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by TruSoulja View Post
    Hmmm... I don't like the fact that factions declare independence even when it's illogical for them since they'll just be conquered by the Muslims. I guess I'll wait to purchase this DLC then; not that I would be able to play anyways. Way too busy with school.

    you dont need the dlc for factions, they are in the normal patch.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nague View Post
    you dont need the dlc for factions, they are in the normal patch.
    Oh ok. I was still waiting for the DLC to play the Byzantines because of all the other extra options.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Tornado View Post
    1) Re Pre-emptive actions: The "uncover plots" action for spymaster has been changed to "scheme". You can set your spymaster on vassals in factions and blackmail them into leaving factions. The probability of this happening is also quite decent.

    2) Re Happy Vassals joining factions: You need vassals to be more happy than +49 to stop them. I am not sure what the actual limit is, but they have mentioned this in the DD that deals with faction... if you have super happy vassals then they won't join factions.

    3) Re Fast growth: You can appease them by, say lowering crown authority, introducing laws in their favour, giving them patronages etc... earlier, the King was too powerful, now the vassals have also gained power. It is hard for King to be too abusive towards vassals, and it is equally hard for the King to just expand the realm without worrying about the situation with vassals. It adds a new dimension to the game...

    4) Re Immunities: I have two words for you: Magna Carta. The baron formed a faction and forced the King of England to sign the thing that limited his authority (and basically stopped England from ever turning into an Absolute Monarchy seen almost everywhere else in Europe at some point or other). Besides, vassals are not breaking any law by just demanding things. They are breaking law by going to war, after which they become traitors...

    5) Re old saves: Yeah, the old saves suck for this reason... I'd imagine on newer games, you'd not have that much amount of blobbing in the first place unless the monarch was exceptionally skilled.
    #1 is very good to know. Do you know what kind of Opinion we're looking at for #2? Perhaps ~75? I've had no luck appeasing someone once they join a faction - it seems once they join they're in for good. Here's an example: Duke of Tolouse starts Independence Revolt. I grant him the Kingdom of Aquitane (was going to do that anyway) yet the Faction continues to exist - so I've just hurt myself in the foot by making him stronger. I've yet to see any sort of appeasement work and a Kingdom grant would seem to be the ultimate.

    We need a screen that tells us who is Excommunicated or something like that - as that's become much more important now. It should be shown on the character's screen at least.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Tornado View Post
    .

    2) Re Happy Vassals joining factions: You need vassals to be more happy than +49 to stop them. I am not sure what the actual limit is, but they have mentioned this in the DD that deals with faction... if you have super happy vassals then they won't join factions.
    In the DD (though maybe in the comments) it was mentioned to be 80+ loyalty avoids any problems with vassals.
    Seems to me we just cant easily "tax them into space" anymore as we used to do...

    (added link)
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post14341931
    Last edited by Aardvark Bellay; 17-10-2012 at 05:26.

  15. #35
    BTW, I don't think they're overpowered but they have the advantage over us in that they know the rules and we don't

    ...and I'm surprised they didn't fix the bug where revolters (who temporarily become your direct vassals) would show up in Intrique - these same noble revolters are now joining factions - when I'd think they shouldn't be allowed to. You can't imprison/excommunicate these vassals because they're technically not your direct vassals though they show up as so while the revolt is ongoing.

  16. #36
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    Just play as Byzantines, and I as emperor destroyed the Seljuk hordes and saved the empire. Right after the peace, faction civil war... -_-

    Seriously? Have fun with the OP muslims invading all of you that I just saved! Blegh, Im done with the game until its adjusted.
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  17. #37
    There probably should be an opinion modifier or a faction join modifier that keeps vassals which border infidels more loyal to the crown.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfGrey View Post
    There probably should be an opinion modifier or a faction join modifier that keeps vassals which border infidels more loyal to the crown.
    Great idea.
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfGrey View Post
    There probably should be an opinion modifier or a faction join modifier that keeps vassals which border infidels more loyal to the crown.
    But it should obviously only apply if they share the same religion as their liege.

  20. #40
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    i honestly find it quite nicely balanced, but IMO there should
    A. more ways to deal with factions(even something simple as asking them to abandon the faction). people who like you over 30 certainly shouldnt join a faction against you unless he is of a diffrent religion, culture, or lives quite far away.
    B. pro-liege factions by loyalists(that i.e. get a large opinion boost, get additionally rewarded by the AI and send MUCH more troops into war)
    C. a way to see WHY a certain vassel does X and act accordingly
    D. factions should slow down a little. it should take a few months to initiate a faction. i.e. a X for the X kingdom! starts with a chain event where they try to capture the liege, the liege gets to react, the liege tries to imprison them all once they send him the ultimatum ect.

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