Any point to mechanised infantry?

Eh up me duck · Sep 17, 2012

Sup, is there any point to building mechanised infantry? As anyone? It seems like they have a really high IC cost vs mediocre attack and durability. I already have tanks to make the breakthrough and motorised infantry to back them up, why do I need mech infantry?

Findex · Sep 17, 2012

A Badass name?

unmerged(297954) · Sep 17, 2012

Especially considering that they are fairly difficult to research ... You really dont need them. I use them mostly for fun

LiamRiordan · Sep 17, 2012

Typically they're fast in almost all terrain save for swamps/marsh and mountains. Just think of them as tougher cavalry.

Faulty · Sep 17, 2012

Are they actually tougher though? I've edited my files a bunch, could someone post the default stats for 1942 cav and mechanised divisions

LiamRiordan · Sep 17, 2012

Faulty said:
Are they actually tougher though? I've edited my files a bunch, could someone post the default stats for 1942 cav and mechanised divisions

From DH Full cavalry.txt from 1942 onwards:

Code:

# Mech Cavalry Division 1942 - 12model = {
	cost 					= 15
	buildtime	 			= 350
	manpower 				= 11
	maxspeed 				= 13
	defaultorganisation 	= 30
	morale					= 35
	defensiveness 			= 34
	toughness				= 30
	softness				= 65
	suppression				= 6
	airdefence				= 7
	softattack				= 22
	hardattack           	= 7
	airattack				= 6
	transportweight			= 30
	supplyconsumption 		= 1.3
	fuelconsumption			= 5.5
	no_fuel_combat_mod 		= -0.2
	speed_cap_art			= 6
	speed_cap_eng			= 14
	speed_cap_at			= 13
	speed_cap_aa			= 6
	upgrade_time_factor = 0.75
	upgrade_cost_factor = 1.20
	reinforce_time		= 1.5
	reinforce_cost 		= 1.20
}
# Armored Cavalry Division 1946 - 13
model = {
	cost 					= 16
	buildtime	 			= 350
	manpower 				= 11
	maxspeed 				= 14
	defaultorganisation 	= 30
	morale					= 35
	defensiveness 			= 38
	toughness				= 38
	softness				= 50
	suppression				= 4
	airdefence				= 8
	softattack				= 24
	hardattack           	= 10
	airattack				= 7
	transportweight			= 30
	supplyconsumption 		= 2.2
	fuelconsumption			= 6
	no_fuel_combat_mod 		= -0.3
	speed_cap_art			= 7
	speed_cap_eng			= 15
	speed_cap_at			= 14
	speed_cap_aa			= 7
	upgrade_time_factor = 0.75
	upgrade_cost_factor = 1.25
	reinforce_time		= 1.5
	reinforce_cost 		= 1.25
}
# Air Cavalry Division 1951 - 14
model = {
	cost 					= 25
	buildtime	 			= 390
	manpower 				= 11
	maxspeed 				= 20
	defaultorganisation 	= 40
	morale					= 40
	defensiveness 			= 18
	toughness				= 20
	softness				= 95
	suppression				= 5
	airdefence				= 8
	softattack				= 26
	hardattack              = 16
	airattack				= 12
	transportweight			= 30
	supplyconsumption 		= 2.8
	no_fuel_combat_mod 		= -0.9
	fuelconsumption			= 3
	speed_cap_art			= 8
	speed_cap_eng			= 16
	speed_cap_at			= 15
	speed_cap_aa			= 8
	upgrade_time_factor = 0.75
	upgrade_cost_factor = 0.83
	reinforce_time		= 1.5
	reinforce_cost 		= 0.83
}

From DH Full mechanized.txt:

Code:

# 0 - 1942 Basic Mechanized Division - 0
model = {
	cost 					= 15
	buildtime	 			= 345
	manpower 				= 12
	maxspeed 				= 12
	defaultorganisation 	= 30
	morale					= 30
	defensiveness 			= 43
	toughness				= 32
	softness				= 64
	suppression				= 2
	airdefence				= 5
	softattack				= 16
	hardattack				= 7
	airattack				= 6
	transportweight			= 30
	supplyconsumption 		= 1.3
	fuelconsumption			= 5.5
	no_fuel_combat_mod 		= -0.2
	speed_cap_art		= 6
	speed_cap_eng		= 13
	speed_cap_at		= 12
	speed_cap_aa		= 6
	upgrade_time_factor = 0.75
	upgrade_cost_factor = 1.20
	reinforce_time		= 1.5
	reinforce_cost 		= 1.20
}
# 1 - 1945 Improved Mechanized Division - 1
model = {
	cost 					= 15
	buildtime	 			= 345
	manpower 				= 12
	maxspeed 				= 13
	defaultorganisation 	= 30
	morale					= 30
	defensiveness 			= 46
	toughness				= 36
	softness				= 60
	suppression				= 2
	airdefence				= 6
	softattack				= 20
	hardattack				= 8
	airattack				= 7
	transportweight			= 30
	supplyconsumption 		= 1.4
	fuelconsumption			= 5.5
	no_fuel_combat_mod 		= -0.2
	speed_cap_art		= 7
	speed_cap_eng		= 14
	speed_cap_at		= 13
	speed_cap_aa		= 7
	upgrade_time_factor = 0.75
	upgrade_cost_factor = 1.20
	reinforce_time		= 1.5
	reinforce_cost 		= 1.20
}
# 2 - 1948 Advanced Mechanized Division - 2
model = {
	cost 					= 15
	buildtime	 			= 345
	manpower 				= 12
	maxspeed 				= 14
	defaultorganisation 	= 30
	morale					= 30
	defensiveness 			= 49
	toughness				= 39
	softness				= 57
	suppression				= 2
	airdefence				= 7
	softattack				= 21
	hardattack				= 9
	airattack				= 8
	transportweight			= 30
	supplyconsumption 		= 1.5
	fuelconsumption			= 5.5
	no_fuel_combat_mod 		= -0.2
	speed_cap_art		= 8
	speed_cap_eng		= 15
	speed_cap_at		= 14
	speed_cap_aa		= 8
	upgrade_time_factor = 0.75
	upgrade_cost_factor = 1.20
	reinforce_time		= 1.5
	reinforce_cost 		= 1.20
}
# 3 - 1952 Semi-Modern Mechanized Division - 3
model = {
	cost 					= 15
	buildtime	 			= 345
	manpower 				= 12
	maxspeed 				= 15
	defaultorganisation 	= 30
	morale					= 30
	defensiveness 			= 52
	toughness				= 42
	softness				= 55
	suppression				= 2
	airdefence				= 8
	softattack				= 23
	hardattack				= 10
	airattack				= 9
	transportweight			= 30
	supplyconsumption 		= 1.5
	fuelconsumption			= 5.5
	no_fuel_combat_mod 		= -0.2
	speed_cap_art			= 9
	speed_cap_eng			= 16
	speed_cap_at			= 15
	speed_cap_aa			= 9
	upgrade_time_factor = 0.75
	upgrade_cost_factor = 1.20
	reinforce_time		= 1.5
	reinforce_cost 		= 1.20
}
# 4 - 1956 Modern Mechanized Division - 4
model = {
	cost 					= 15
	buildtime	 			= 345
	manpower 				= 12
	maxspeed 				= 16
	defaultorganisation 	= 30
	morale					= 35
	defensiveness 			= 55
	toughness				= 45 # was 37
	softness				= 55
	suppression				= 2
	airdefence				= 9
	softattack				= 25
	hardattack				= 11
	airattack				= 10
	transportweight			= 30
	supplyconsumption 		= 1.5
	fuelconsumption			= 5.5
	no_fuel_combat_mod 		= -0.2
	speed_cap_art			= 11
	speed_cap_eng			= 17
	speed_cap_at			= 16
	speed_cap_aa			= 11
	upgrade_time_factor = 0.75
	upgrade_cost_factor = 1.20
	reinforce_time		= 1.5
	reinforce_cost 		= 1.20
}
# 5 - 1960 Elite Mechanized Division - 5
model = {
	cost 					= 15
	buildtime	 			= 345
	manpower 				= 12
	maxspeed 				= 17
	defaultorganisation 	= 30
	morale					= 35
	defensiveness 			= 58
	toughness				= 48 # was 42
	softness				= 55
	suppression				= 2
	airdefence				= 10
	softattack				= 28
	hardattack				= 12
	airattack				= 11
	transportweight			= 30
	supplyconsumption 		= 1.5
	fuelconsumption			= 5.5
	no_fuel_combat_mod 		= -0.2
	speed_cap_art			= 11
	speed_cap_eng			= 18
	speed_cap_at			= 17
	speed_cap_aa			= 11
	upgrade_time_factor = 0.75
	upgrade_cost_factor = 1.20
	reinforce_time		= 1.5
	reinforce_cost 		= 1.20
}

jpbfr · Sep 17, 2012

Since you are discussing units, i was about to create a post asking if there is any point in building heavy tanks ( H Arm Brigade) since from the stats it seems medium armor brigade is superior to heavy, even in terms of Soft/ Hard Attack, which is incorrect IMHO. So , does anybody ever use them ? Maybe there is something that makes them worth my time ?

Eh up me duck · Sep 17, 2012

IMO there's no point to any of the armoured brigades anyway. Sure they're handy if you start with them, but from a gameplay point of view, artillery are about twice as powerful for about half the cost.

Having said that, I will sometimes stick some armoured brigades on serial and attach them to inf+art divisions to create infantry with an insane attack value.

PorscheKiller · Sep 17, 2012

I like to build Tanks with Medium and Heavy Tanks Attachments... nothing can stop it, but it sure is pricey.

jpbfr · Sep 18, 2012

Heavy tanks should be boosted, since IRL Germany and USSR used than extensively and to good effect. Currently SP-Art is way more useful. I hope this changes in 1.3

unmerged(297954) · Sep 18, 2012

SP art was very heavily used between the USSR and Germany, very effectively at that.... I dont think they deserve a nerf. It makes sense that SP art should be the go-to attachment for mobile divisions.

I'm still not sure why you can add medium tanks to a medium tank division. Is this meant to represent an unusually large tank division? This doesn't really make sense in context of what an attachment is supposed to be.

Prince of Lies · Sep 18, 2012

WW2 without the "combined arms" action just seems wrong...

so I mainly use mech inf to create fast corps that are combined arms

Mot - Mot - Mech (Fast response and Tank follow up)
HQ - Mot - Mech (Spearhead HQ)
HQ - Mech - Mech (Spearhead HQ with hardened tip)

Gort11 · Sep 18, 2012

Wow, those mechanised are pretty damn poor - 16 soft attack versus the 22 of cavalry?

If I remember correctly they also get a massive penalty to attacking cities because the game thinks they are tanks due to the low softness. (of course, it might do that with the cavalry too)

zanaikin · Sep 18, 2012

Does Panzer Leader trait bonus still only apply to hard units? Cause that was the only reason I built mechanized in HOI2 --- 1tank/1mech/1mot was my normal mobile corps. 2tank/1mot gets too expensive on TC since takes consume too much fuel.

Also the high softattack values of cavalry makes me wonder if it's worthwhile to just upgrade most infantry into semi-mech cavalry? Sure they burn more fuel, but also move so much faster and hit like INF+ART.

jpbfr · Sep 18, 2012

Bogdan.ua said:
SP art was very heavily used between the USSR and Germany, very effectively at that.... I dont think they deserve a nerf. It makes sense that SP art should be the go-to attachment for mobile divisions.

I did not say SP ART deseves a nerf , I agree they are the best attachements for mobile divisions. I just said that Heavy Tanks were ALSO largely useful IRL , so they deserv a boost so they become worth buliding in-game. Does anybody around here use them ? I bulid them usually for flavour. Germany without Tigers is just... strange.

Gort11 · Sep 18, 2012

zanaikin said:
Also the high softattack values of cavalry makes me wonder if it's worthwhile to just upgrade most infantry into semi-mech cavalry? Sure they burn more fuel, but also move so much faster and hit like INF+ART.

If you're after soft attack, build cheap units, not cavalry.

One 1939 cavalry division is 20 soft attack. Cost: 3300 IC days.

Two 1939 infantry divisions is 48 soft attack. Cost: 2900 IC days.

Five 1939 militia divisions is 60 soft attack. Cost: 2800 IC days.

So yeah, don't build cavalry because you want lots of soft attack. There are reasons to use non-militia units, and they are:

1. You have a really narrow front and the number of units you can bring to bear is very limited.
2. You don't have that much manpower to play with.
3. You want a specialised force for a special job (marines, paratroopers, outflanking units that need to go fast)

Try a game as Japan where you pour all your spare IC into militia early on. You'll be surprised how quickly China collapses when you play them at their own game.

LiamRiordan · Sep 18, 2012

So if an enemy nation decides to go ARM-Mech, the soft attack strategy swarms can be countered due to the lower hard attack?

Problem is, not many can support such large investments into ARM units... H-Arm units seem like a good manpower saver in terms of sheer power to me.

unmerged(306789) · Sep 18, 2012

I am constantly seeing people in the forum rave about soft attack. Soft attack values are supposed to be ineffective against armored units. The lower the "softness" of a unit, the more resistant it is to an infantry/militia spam. I know that it makes the game easier to use this strategy versus the ai, because the most common type of units you will be encountering are "soft" units.

Are soft attack values to high, is soft attack too effective? If there was a human vs human game and one person builds his army around soft attack and the other tries to counter this strategy and builds units with low softness and brigades to lower softness, who would typically win?

Lets get to testing fellas.

Gort11 · Sep 18, 2012

Sertorius Black said:
I am constantly seeing people in the forum rave about soft attack. Soft attack values are supposed to be ineffective against armored units. The lower the "softness" of a unit, the more resistant it is to an infantry/militia spam. I know that it makes the game easier to use this strategy versus the ai, because the most common type of units you will be encountering are "soft" units.

Are soft attack values to high, is soft attack too effective? If there was a human vs human game and one person builds his army around soft attack and the other tries to counter this strategy and builds units with low softness and brigades to lower softness, who would typically win?

Lets get to testing fellas.

Nobody's going to test this. There is basically no MP scene for Darkest Hour because it takes so damn long to play a game of it.

In any case, the problem with using tanks to fight infantry is that their soft attack is so low. A tank division in 1939 has the same soft attack as an infantry division in 1939. They are 30% soft, so it's not like they're immune to soft attack spam, but the kicker is this.

For one tank division, I can get 5.7 infantry divisions. Even if the tanks had 0% softness I would still be hitting you with 40 hard attack compared to the 16 soft attack you do back. If I did it with militia, I would hit you with 44 hard attack instead.

Tanks are for speed, and for getting as much as you can out of limited manpower. That's why they're great for Germany, they allow them to usefully spend their IC before the war, and they allow them to take out France and Poland quickly, without having to fight their army. They're also great for encirclements. But don't for one second think they're an economical way to FIGHT anything.

LiamRiordan · Sep 18, 2012

Its very economical if you do encirclements quickly, which is what they're meant for. Though as said, anything else, use foot soldiers.

Any point to mechanised infantry?

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