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Thread: Social Liberalism

  1. #1

    Social Liberalism

    Is it intentional that there are no social liberal parties in any of the nations? I realise it might be a lot of work to add them, but it seems slightly strange to me to have a non-radical ideology with over 10% support having no representation.

    In general it also seems like voting results are skewed a lot by the parties available, but I don't know if that is just me? Again in my recent Scandinavia game, the two Conservative parties have each gotten as many votes as the overall conservative voter support (so with roughly 20% conservative voters both parties got 20% votes, giving the conservative block a significant size over the liberals and socialists, where there is only one party each). Maybe this is just a fluke for me, but it seemed worth mentioning.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Nis Baggesen View Post
    Is it intentional that there are no social liberal parties in any of the nations? I realise it might be a lot of work to add them, but it seems slightly strange to me to have a non-radical ideology with over 10% support having no representation.
    I've not got round to adding them, mostly. We'll probably through together a 'generic' social liberal party at some stage (tho truth be told, they're just another flavour of liberal IRL).

    In general it also seems like voting results are skewed a lot by the parties available, but I don't know if that is just me? Again in my recent Scandinavia game, the two Conservative parties have each gotten as many votes as the overall conservative voter support (so with roughly 20% conservative voters both parties got 20% votes, giving the conservative block a significant size over the liberals and socialists, where there is only one party each). Maybe this is just a fluke for me, but it seemed worth mentioning.
    Remember that both issues and ideology play a part in how POPs vote for the LH - if you have a pro-mil tory party, high pro-mil and 100% socialist POPs, you'll still see some POPs voting Tory.
    For every subtle and complicated question, there is a simple and straightforward answer, which is wrong.

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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Naselus View Post
    I've not got round to adding them, mostly. We'll probably through together a 'generic' social liberal party at some stage (tho truth be told, they're just another flavour of liberal IRL).



    Remember that both issues and ideology play a part in how POPs vote for the LH - if you have a pro-mil tory party, high pro-mil and 100% socialist POPs, you'll still see some POPs voting Tory.
    True enough. But then, this also means that if a block has two parties, then it has a much higher chance of attracting random votes like this, than the one party block. I realise this is the voting system being funky, and not something you can do a lot about, it just seems problematic to me.

    As for Social-Liberal just being another type of liberals, I guess I'll just have to disagree. That is not how I experience them in Danish politics at least.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Nis Baggesen View Post
    As for Social-Liberal just being another type of liberals, I guess I'll just have to disagree. That is not how I experience them in Danish politics at least.
    Um? It's the definition used by political science to describe centre-left (as opposed to 'classical' free market centre-right) liberalism - about where the Democrats in the USA like to think they stand (tho they're actually a centre-right party). They're liberals who oppose collective ownership of the means of production, but accept that the state must provide a degree of welfare because the playing field isn't level.

    The Danish Social Liberal party is a member of Liberal International and the European Liberal Democrat party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_..._Liberal_Party).

    You have to remember we're using the 19th Century definitions here - a 'liberal' is a classic liberal who thinks that the state has no business in business, a 'socialist' is someone who believes that government should be run the commanding heights of the economy, and a conservative is the middle ground - rather than the modern context, where a conservative is a raving right-wing neoliberal loon looking to privatise God and a liberal is centrist.

    see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism, or better yet read up on Emile Durkheim (who, along with Marx and Weber, somewhat inevitably influences this mod rather heavily, as you'd expect from a social science grad).
    For every subtle and complicated question, there is a simple and straightforward answer, which is wrong.

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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Naselus View Post
    Um? It's the definition used by political science to describe centre-left (as opposed to 'classical' free market centre-right) liberalism - about where the Democrats in the USA like to think they stand (tho they're actually a centre-right party). They're liberals who oppose collective ownership of the means of production, but accept that the state must provide a degree of welfare because the playing field isn't level.

    The Danish Social Liberal party is a member of Liberal International and the European Liberal Democrat party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_..._Liberal_Party).

    You have to remember we're using the 19th Century definitions here - a 'liberal' is a classic liberal who thinks that the state has no business in business, a 'socialist' is someone who believes that government should be run the commanding heights of the economy, and a conservative is the middle ground - rather than the modern context, where a conservative is a raving right-wing neoliberal loon looking to privatise God and a liberal is centrist.

    see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism, or better yet read up on Emile Durkheim (who, along with Marx and Weber, somewhat inevitably influences this mod rather heavily, as you'd expect from a social science grad).
    Fair enough. I stand corrected. If Social-Liberal only covers the center-left Liberals, what is a centrist Socialist called?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nis Baggesen View Post
    Fair enough. I stand corrected. If Social-Liberal only covers the center-left Liberals, what is a centrist Socialist called?
    A socialist.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nis Baggesen View Post
    Fair enough. I stand corrected. If Social-Liberal only covers the center-left Liberals, what is a centrist Socialist called?
    In-game, they're just 'socialists'.

    In real life, they'd be Social Democrats, one who rejects the concept of socialist and capitalism being mutually exclusive polar opposites and believes that reform can produce a socialist state. While initially 'social democrat' referred to all socialists, this later became split up into reformist and revolutionary branches. The reformists are covered by our socialists; the revolutionaries are our Communists.

    Essentially, socialism as a doctrine requires state supremacy over the individual, while liberalism requires the ascendancy of the individual. Social Liberalism covers the middle ground, since it's liberal (the individual has primacy) while accepting the need for state intervention to counter imbalances of power between individuals.

    To put in a two-cows analogy:

    In a socialist state, the government owns two cows, and pays you to milk them.
    In a social-liberal state, a private individual owns two cows, and pays you to milk them, but cannot make his workers milk them for more than 20 minutes a day and has to give them toilet breaks and a company pension.
    In a liberal state, a private individual owns two cows, and pays you to milk them.
    In an anarcho-liberal state, a private individual owns two cows, and shoots you if you don't milk them.
    In a Communist state, the government owns two cows, and shoots you if you don't milk them.
    In a Conservative state, the aristocrats own two cows, and allow you to milk them as that's how its been done for a thousand years.
    In a reactionary state, the aristocrats own two cows, and if you buy any cows of your own they shoot you.
    In a fascist state, the neighbouring country owns two cows, so the government shoots them and then makes you milk them.
    For every subtle and complicated question, there is a simple and straightforward answer, which is wrong.

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naselus
    In a socialist state, the government owns two cows, and pays you to milk them.
    In a social-liberal state, a private individual owns two cows, and pays you to milk them, but cannot make his workers milk them for more than 20 minutes a day and has to give them toilet breaks and a company pension.
    In a liberal state, a private individual owns two cows, and pays you to milk them.
    In an anarcho-liberal state, a private individual owns two cows, and shoots you if you don't milk them.
    In a Communist state, the government owns two cows, and shoots you if you don't milk them.
    In a Conservative state, the aristocrats own two cows, and allow you to milk them as that's how its been done for a thousand years.
    In a reactionary state, the aristocrats own two cows, and if you buy any cows of your own they shoot you.
    In a fascist state, the neighbouring country owns two cows, so the government shoots them and then makes you milk them.
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  9. #9
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    I'm not clear on whether the workers or the cows get toilet breaks and pensions in a social liberal state. Maybe both?
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  11. #11
    ...and the reason Fascism is a failed ideology is because trying to milk a cow after you've shot it just isn't effective.

  12. #12
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    where do the cows stand on Libertarian Socialism?
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Communazi View Post
    where do the cows stand on Libertarian Socialism?
    They're held in common by everyone in the hope that they'll milk themselves.
    For every subtle and complicated question, there is a simple and straightforward answer, which is wrong.

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  15. #15
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    On a slightly unrelated note, shouldint there be a decent amount of people (not as much as liberal, but a fair amount) converting to social liberalism at a constant rate to represent the non-radicalized socialists?

    If you want I could also throw together the parties, its just a copy pasta issue for most countries if a standard template can be agreed on, so not too much work

  16. #16
    I think the socialists are the moderate socialists, while the "communists" are radical socialists.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_eye View Post
    I think the socialists are the moderate socialists, while the "communists" are radical socialists.
    They are, but then there are the social democrats, that are very similar in ideology to socialists, slightly socialist (social lib/dem) moderate (socialist) and communist (extremist)

  18. #18
    non-radical socialists are called socialists, Connor. This includes social democratic parties.
    For every subtle and complicated question, there is a simple and straightforward answer, which is wrong.

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  19. #19
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    Eh, those non radicalized ones dont support political reform, which is what irks me

  20. #20
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    Aren't social democrats the modern equivalent of social liberals? where social liberal basically became what we know as vanilla 'socialist' ?
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