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Thread: Need help fixing leaders

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    General Commander666's Avatar
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    Need help fixing leaders

    I thought I had gotten a good installation of 1.07 achieved. But I notice one bug - whenever I promote leaders they don't lose any skill? All else works great. Can somebody please give instruction/code as to what file to MOD to fix that?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Commander666 View Post
    I thought I had gotten a good installation of 1.07 achieved. But I notice one bug - whenever I promote leaders they don't lose any skill? All else works great. Can somebody please give instruction/code as to what file to MOD to fix that?

    Thanks.
    It isn't a bug, it's a feature and works as designed. You can't "fix" it.
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    General Commander666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count of Reval View Post
    It isn't a bug, it's a feature and works as designed. You can't "fix" it.
    What do you mean it "works as designed"? Leaders no longer lose any skill if promoted? Rather easy, isn't it? Who designed that?

    Hurrah! I can promote all my Lt. Generals with skill 5 to be Field Marshalls with skill 5. This solves all problems. Let's just run an army so every body is a Field Mashall.

    No more "stacking" problems! No more "finding leaders" problems. No more "thinking" problems. No more "not enough skill" problems. No problems at all anymore.

    What a totally absurd "works as designed". In short, now the system does not work at all anymore. You may as well just dispense with leaders completely!
    Last edited by Commander666; 29-08-2012 at 23:15.

  4. #4
    CORE developer Denniss's Avatar
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    The AI used this feature as well so the devs decided to implement this for the player as well. Has earned a lot of criticism.

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    War is over! if you want it Titan79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commander666 View Post
    What do you mean it "works as designed"? Leaders no longer lose any skill if promoted? Rather easy, isn't it? Who designed that?

    Hurrah! I can promote all my Lt. Generals with skill 5 to be Field Marshalls with skill 5. This solves all problems. Let's just run an army so every body is a Field Mashall.

    No more "stacking" problems! No more "finding leaders" problems. No more "thinking" problems. No more "not enough skill" problems. No problems at all anymore.

    What a totally absurd "works as designed". It short, now the system does not work at all anymore. You may as well just dispense with leaders completely!
    However, Field Marshals gain xp at a much lower rate than Major Generals or other lower ranking officers, so you ought to promote them sparingly (unless you don't want them to remain more or less stuck at the same skill level as they were before the promotion to FM).
    “Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized: in the first it is ridiculed, in the second it is opposed, in the third it is regarded as self-evident” (Arthur Schopenhauer)


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    General Commander666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denniss View Post
    The AI used this feature as well so the devs decided to implement this for the player as well. Has earned a lot of criticism.
    It certainly deserves what it has earned!

    But I am glad I don't have a bug in my v1.07 install. But honestly, I'd rather play with a bug in my game than this stupid "no leaders lose any skill and you can promote them umpteen times".

    WOW! What a brain hemorrhage that must have been for the devs!

  7. #7
    Field Marshal Mr_B0narpte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denniss View Post
    The AI used this feature as well so the devs decided to implement this for the player as well. Has earned a lot of criticism.
    On that basis the players should get no retooling, free research, unlimited naval range, no need to rebase planes so long as there is a friendly airfield in range of the target.... If the only defence of this is that if the AI has it the human should too, it doesn't really stand up to much scrutiny.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Commander666 View Post
    What do you mean it "works as designed"? Leaders no longer lose any skill if promoted? Rather easy, isn't it? Who designed that?

    Hurrah! I can promote all my Lt. Generals with skill 5 to be Field Marshalls with skill 5. This solves all problems. Let's just run an army so every body is a Field Mashall.

    No more "stacking" problems! No more "finding leaders" problems. No more "thinking" problems. No more "not enough skill" problems. No problems at all anymore.

    What a totally absurd "works as designed". It short, now the system does not work at all anymore. You may as well just dispense with leaders completely!
    You want to know the name of a developer who designed the feature? Probably the one who coded 1.07 patch. You can google his name, it's findable. I can't take it on my conscience to spell out his name.

    There is one solution how to fix it: you can edit your save game file each time you promote someone to reflect his proper skills on new commanding level! Think, this system is much more flexible. In that way the drop of a skill doesn't have to be exactly 1 in each case. Maybe in some cases the skill may even rise--as an officer starts to shine only in higher commanding level where his strategical skills will be better utilized. In addition you could remove, for example, Superior Tactician trait from a naval officer when you promote him all three notches as he can't deserve the same combat bonus any more leading much larger ship formations now. There might be time-dependent deterioration of experience reflecting officer's aging (worse memory!) and obsolescence some of his knowledge in new environment. Etc.

    There has been so much talk about this feature that I just checked if this has been altered back in 1.08 (or brought as parameter to misc.txt)--it isn't.
    Last edited by Count of Reval; 29-08-2012 at 20:26.
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  9. #9
    Field Marshal Pioniere's Avatar
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    Going from general to Field Marshals your leader should lose one skill point, but in other than that it leaders should not lose skill.
    You promote leaders because they are useful and have potential.
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  10. #10
    Field Marshal Mr_B0narpte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioniere View Post
    Going from general to Field Marshals your leader should lose one skill point, but in other than that it leaders should not lose skill.
    You promote leaders because they are useful and have potential.
    Yes indeed, but any promotion would lead to certain adjustments in role and organisation, any promotion reducing experience by 1 simulates this well IMO. Also think of gameplay and history, as Commander666 said, you shouldn't just be able to promote all the leaders you want to Field Marshal without some penalties (which consist of more then just slower xp gain).
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  11. #11
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    Why can't this just be added to Misc?

    Value = 0 equals no skill loss upon promotion.
    Value = 1 equals 1 skill loss.

  12. #12
    General Commander666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan79 View Post
    However, Field Marshals gain xp at a much lower rate than Major Generals or other lower ranking officers, so you ought to promote them sparingly (unless you don't want them to remain more or less stuck at the same skill level as they were before the promotion to FM).
    What you say used to make sense. Now, who needs any experience gain when I can be a Lt. General with skill 5 and turn myself into a Field Marshal with skill 5? The experience gain is to get the skill level up (100 experience = 1 skill level climb). If I already have 5 skill why would I need any more experience. I can retire!

    It used to be that a Lt. General with Skill 5 became a Field Marshal with Skill Level 2. 300 points of experience was needed to get back to Skill Level 5. Yes, Field Marshals gain skill slower, but they don't need any skill gain now because nobody losses their high skill levels with promotion.

    The aircrews don't need to worry about skill gain either. If you can command 4 wings as a Tactician Skill 4, you can now be Hermann's Goring's rival and - overnight - command 16 wings at Skill 4. Usually that took a lower level air leader (Maj. General) the Battle of France, Battle of Britain, Barbarrossa, and the invasion of USA to make an Air Marshal with that still had decent skill.

    Not only did the devs wreck the game as per my earlier comments, but - thank you for pointing it out - they have also negated the very proper old focus on needing to gain skill to be able to promote (and not be a Skill Zero). Killed more than 2 birds with one stupidly thrown stone!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioniere View Post
    Going from general to Field Marshals your leader should lose one skill point, but in other than that it leaders should not lose skill.
    You promote leaders because they are useful and have potential.
    Ah haa! It's a DEV! Great! What possible sense does your nimcompoph statement make? Have you ever been promoted in your life - at anything? And you mean to tell me that you had the same skill taking on a brand new job, as you did leaving the old one? No you did not. When you found yourself in a new job of greater responsibility you did not have the same degree of experience as you had before you were promoted.

    Any promotion, from any level, results in loss of skill. Your view that it is OK to drop skill when promoting higher ranks but skip the penalty when promoting lower ranks is about as unbalanced, unrealistic, and untrue as it gets. What is your possible rationale for making such a mathematically flawed statement?

    THe discussion is not "why one promotes leaders". If you like to do it because you think they are "useful and have potential" fine. I do it because its is necessary to run a big stack, or have all 16 airwings on that province at that moment under necessary command to avoid huge "over stacking penalty". With your view point, if I get in an overstack jam, I'll just run up my promotion to avoid overstacking, and I have nothing to lose (except 1 point of skill, as you suggest,if I increase command levels to max).

    Hell, let's not just make everybody in the army a Field Marshal, but also everybody in the airforce an Air Marshal, and everybody in the navy a Grand Admiral. Did I miss anybody? The game has been reduced to "Cracker Box stripes and medallions!"
    Last edited by Commander666; 29-08-2012 at 22:58.

  14. #14
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    Commander, it is not nice of you to talk to Pioniere with such tone. He has done A LOT for this game so taking him on like that is really not fair. You can still make valid points about game design but finger pointing and nasty words are really not the way to go. That applies to you other guys to. I haven't seen any of you make any comments when 1.8 was in the making on that topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count of Reval View Post
    You want to know the name of a developer who designed the feature? Probably the one who coded 1.07 patch. You can google his name, it's findable. I can't take it on my conscience to spell out his name.

    There is one solution how to fix it: you can edit your save game file each time you promote someone to reflect his proper skills on new commanding level! Think, this system is much more flexible. In that way the drop of a skill doesn't have to be exactly 1 in each case. Maybe in some cases the skill may even rise--as an officer starts to shine only in higher commanding level where his strategical skills will be better utilized. In addition you could remove, for example, Superior Tactician trait from a naval officer when you promote him all three notches as he can't deserve the same combat bonus any more leading much larger ship formations now. There might be time-dependent deterioration of experience reflecting officer's aging (worse memory!) and obsolescence some of his knowledge in new environment. Etc.

    There has been so much talk about this feature that I just checked if this has been altered back in 1.08 (or brought as parameter to misc.txt)--it isn't.
    Thanks for the tip. I would take you up on it if I were a hit man!

    No, 1.08 did not fix it. In fact, scanning the changes, I saw the word "leader" and something else that made me cringe.

    However, your other suggestion of me editing my save file is akin to cutting off my nose to spite my face. I'm afraid I am much better yelling at people than trying to fix it myself. You see, I got promoted early in life from a nobody with remarkable skills - so I was always self employed, and now I am the CEO with the same remarkable skills. Had the devs studied my case, they would have known what a horrible, horrific and horrendously stupid mistake they made.

    Anyway, I don't care about 1.08 and only care about 1.07 as being the required for adding THIRD REICH MOD. I think - if THIRD RIECH MOD can only run over 1.07, the devs may just have developed their own path to extinction with the direction they are headed. While this is not the section for Game Enhancement suggestions, they really should be working on fixing the AI unlimited range ability, Allies not needing any ports for their ships in the Med if the Med is closed, and making the manual control of convoys user friendly instead of tinkering with "IF the AI does it, we'll find balance by letting the human do it". NO! TWO WRONGS DO NOT A RIGHT MAKE!

    Hey, I have great suggestion for next patch 1.09 Start by undoing the really bad changes done since 1.04. Where is the democratic voice regarding the insanity of doing this to the leaders, and still letting AI airplanes range all over the world? Thank God for Gringoesteban!

  16. #16
    Field Marshal Mr_B0narpte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hister View Post
    Commander, it is not nice of you to talk to Pioniere with such tone. He has done A LOT for this game so taking him on like that is really not fair. You can still make valid points about game design but finger pointing and nasty words are really not the way to go. That applies to you other guys to. I haven't seen any of you make any comments when 1.8 was in the making on that topic.
    Commander666's tone is generally quite sarcastic/aggressive, I've got used to it personally but don't take it too harshly. And what do you mean 'other guys'? I guess that includes me and if it does I have said nothing that could be seen as offensive or insulting. Many of my comments on what to include in 1.08 have been largely ignored anyway, but it is a great update nonetheless.
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  17. #17
    War is over! if you want it Titan79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commander666 View Post
    Anyway, I don't care about 1.08 and only care about 1.07 as being the required for adding THIRD REICH MOD.
    Check the TRM's thread in the User Modifications subforum, Commander. Maybe we're on the right path to make it compatible with 1.08 in short time.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hister View Post
    Commander, it is not nice of you to talk to Pioniere with such tone. He has done A LOT for this game so taking him on like that is really not fair. You can still make valid points about game design but finger pointing and nasty words are really not the way to go. That applies to you other guys to. I haven't seen any of you make any comments when 1.8 was in the making on that topic.
    Good point. And I do appreciate all the devs and others have done for this game. So maybe they need to appreciate what all the others - us non-devs - have done for this game, and listen to voices. However, there is absolutely no reason to call anybody a "nimcompoph" just because they have "dev" after their name. I don't even know if he was involved with 1.08. So, Pioniere, please accept my sincerest apology regarding calling you that. Sorry, this "leader thing" has really got me riled up. As far as I am concerned, it has just removed a major challenge, it is extremely disappointing, and I am most opposed to this change. Most sad, really.

    Have a nice day!

  19. #19
    Field Marshal Mr_B0narpte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commander666 View Post
    Sorry, this "leader thing" has really got me riled up. As far as I am concerned, it has just removed a major challenge, it is extremely disappointing, and I am most opposed to this change. Most sad, really.
    A major challenge? Surely fighting the war should be the challenge
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan79 View Post
    Check the TRM's thread in the User Modifications subforum, Commander. Maybe we're on the right path to make it compatible with 1.08 in short time.
    Well, I really do hope you are on the right path regarding that. Now, if we could just get some of the incorrect things along the path removed - which have been commented on for years - I suppose the right path would be righter still. Think it is time I removed myself from here into Enhancements. Why ruin a perfectly good section of Forum discusssing this here?

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