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Problem understanding the push claim of someone in my court

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spaceolivier

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I thought I had understood it but here I am in an unespected result :

I am emperor of france and I wanted to get lands out of the the holy roman emperor who has quite a large empire. He has as his vassal the king of aragon who happens to belong to my dynasty. I invited the Aragon heir (of my dynasty) to my court and pressed his claim on the throne, expecting him to become one of my vassal kings since he is family.
However when I won the war two things happened :

He was independant (I had pressed earlier another claim for a family meber and he became my vassal)

He only inherited half of aragon, the rest staying under the rule of the former king who became a duke vassal to the HRE


Can someone explain it to me ?
 
IIRC it's hardcoded that non-vassal kings stay non-vassals. So you must grant him a barony or something before winning the war.

Other half of Aragon probably belonged to a duchy that was de facto vassal of HRE. You win the war and Aragon's crown goes to your guy along with all current de facto vassals of Aragon.
 
For the first part, you didn't read the cassus belli correctly. They only become vassals if they are already vassals or are of your dynasty or you are their de jure lord. The second part, no idea. Something to do with messed up holdings.
 
cyrileom said:
For the first part, you didn't read the cassus belli correctly. They only become vassals if they are already vassals or are of your dynasty or you are their de jure lord. The second part, no idea. Something to do with messed up holdings.
Click to expand...

Well, considering the Aragon heir was his dynasty, I don't think he read it wrong, it is just the casus belli being messed up. :(
 
AUTOMATIC said:
IIRC it's hardcoded that non-vassal kings stay non-vassals. So you must grant him a barony or something before winning the war.

Other half of Aragon probably belonged to a duchy that was de facto vassal of HRE. You win the war and Aragon's crown goes to your guy along with all current de facto vassals of Aragon.
Click to expand...

All of it was officially arragon (and it was all selected s the target of the war) But the former king kept the duchy of barcelona, where his capital was. Wrom what I understand he should have become a vassal of the new king
 
How do you post a savegame ?

Meanhile, I experimented a bit.
To clear things, de jure aragon is valence, barcelona and majorqua. The king of aragon is of my family owns all de jure aragon and has his capitol in barcelona, he owns as well a few other counties in germany and italy. He is a vassal of HRE.

First, I Invited his brother who had a claim on the throne, of my dynasty to have the cassus belli. I declared war on HRE, and after a long and difficult war I won, and the claimant became an independant king of aragon but only got 3 counties, the rest staying in HRE under the previous king (which means he still owns most of aagon and will probably usurp it back soon.

Then I reloaded and I did the same but gave the claimant a county so that he was my vassal. this time he became king under me but only got 2 counties out of it !

Third I tried to take the lands of aragon during the war to see if what I had actually captured mattered but the result was the same as above.

To be onest I never know what the results of such cassus belli will be so usually I don't bother to use them...
 
Like I wrote before, previous owner of Aragon has holding other than crown that belong to him. He only loses crown as a result of war, not these holdings. He already has a liege and has some holdings that are de facto vassals of his old liege and neither de facto nor de jure holdings of Aragon. For this reason his liege remains the same - Kaiser of HRE - otherwise those holdings would leave HRE as a result of war for Aragon which makes no sense. He can not have two lieges so he is not a vassal of the new king of Aragon.

And use google.
 
Ok now I understand the mecanism. Thank you.

Seems counter intuitive and somewhat wrong however. If a brother goes to a foreign court to get support and wages a war to overthrow his king elder brother, surely, when he wins, he should get the actual kingdom, not just some lousy county where he sits alone and all the land staying under the rule of the guy supposedly overthrew.
 
Because you're claiming what he has belongs to you, in this case, the lands the older brother directly controls and his titles.

The rest of the kingdom still reports to the Kaiser of HRE, and is only in war with you because the Kaiser wants to stop the de jure process.

Of course, since your vassal got the kingdom title, which includes a strong claim on the rest of the kingdom even if anyone decides to usurp it later, you can help him claim the rest of it one land at a time. (it sucks, but meh..)

It's similar to when you revoke a duke of yours through intrigue. You can only revoke the counties/holdings the duke controls, not the entire duchy that he should've been entitled to control. But only those holdings will revolt with him against you.
 
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