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First Lieutenant
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Aug 21, 2008
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I've been trying to get a Byzantine game going, but I'm having difficulty getting off the ground. Anytime I try and expand my territories I get slapped down by Venice or the Ottomans. What are some of the first steps I should be taking to get my rump empire on its feet?
 
Step 0: Always watch for the Ottoman armies to cross the Straits of Constantinople into Asia. You'll be looking to strike when the Ottomans are all in Asia, utilizing a superior navy to keep their armies trapped in Asia while you besiege their Greek territories. As you do the rest of these steps, keep an eye out for the Ottomans, especially their progress against the Timurids; that is usually the deciding factor in when to strike. Also, this requires some luck. It's okay to restart if you get an early (i.e. before the first two attacks, on Epirus and the Ottomans) Regency Council or other seriously unlucky happenings.

Step 1: Load your infantry onto your transports, move adjacent to Epirus and DOW with Reconquest CB the day after Naples does. You'll be able to land first if you don't waste a single day. Use the Neapolitan troops to help you win the siege and raise War Taxes, but do NOT annex until you're about to get forced into a white peace; you want the War Taxes for as long as possible.

Step 2: After getting to +3 Stability, set your treasury slider to full mint and do not pull it off until you attack the Ottomans the first time. You should be able to afford ~2-3 galleys per year. Build them and cogs until you have about 3 of each to the Ottomans' 2; the Ottomans usually build about 14/6 so you're looking at 20/10. Once you're done with that, build as many infantry (favoring Muslim infantry if they're available in Epirus, as they sometimes are; then Western infantry; then Eastern) as you can afford on full mint without accruing an annual deficit.

Step 3: After doing all of this, pull back the treasury slider as much as possible without accruing an annual deficit, put your fleet in the Sea of Marmara and attack the Ottomans the instant their armies are in Asia. You may find Serbian or Bosnian troops still in Europe, but they don't field more than about 3000 apiece, so your army should be able to handle them. Typical result is to see Byzantium reclaim all Ottoman Europe provinces except Edirne; if the Ottomans end up losing to the Timurids while you're beating them, you might be able to cross the straits and take Turkish provinces. If any patriots aligned with you pop up in Ottoman territory, let them seize provinces and let the provinces defect; no need to waste war score.

Step 4: At this point, you're sufficiently on par with the Ottomans that you can afford to play more like a normal country (that is, not mint heavily to survive). Try to get a Master of Mint and the National Bank NI immediately to work off inflation, and focus on getting a solid foothold in Turkey from the second war with the Ottomans. The third war should see their annexation; this third war can be deferred since the second one will end the Ottomans as a threat to you, and should be deferred if you're past about 1535 or so, to give yourself time to recapture your Turkish cores from Ramazan et al (since those expire). Ignore any more Greek cores for right now. Important note for later: On the second war with the Ottomans, try to get Bosnia and Serbia de-vassalized. They stay allied with the Ottomans, so on the third war they should still come fight you, at which point you can vassalize them yourself.

Step 5: Once you own your ex-Ottoman cores and your Turkish cores, look around. You'll probably have to wait on Venice and vassals/puppets because you still won't be particularly wealthy and you'll need to be if you intend to field the requisite fleet to beat Venice. If you see something like Trebizond, an unprotected (i.e. expired guarantee) Greek/Crusader minor, pick them off. If you see someone like The Knights, which usually keeps no more than about 2000 troops, send a few Patriot spies if you have the money and let it defect. Basically, start slowly building up money to afford a respectable fleet (because galleys and cogs sure aren't) and looking for any opportunistic core snatches.

Step 6: Once you have the requisite navy, smash Venice. 100% war score should be more than sufficient to get Corfu, Naxos, Crete, Albania and Athens. If any of the above provinces are still owned by Venetian vassals instead of Venice, attack them and Venice with the Reconquest CB on the same day; doing so will keep the vassal as the war leader and allow for annexation.

Step 7: If you're reading this having made it through 1-6 in-game, congrats, you're on your feet. Outro note: Hordes suck. Watch your borders carefully, and ally with a vassal which does not border a horde; successful use of that trick can keep the Horde from ever attacking you.
 
It's a lot more dicey with 5.2, as the hordes aren't quite so insane.

Fully expect to get DOW'd by any of the bigger western powers, and if that happens, look after your fleet.

The other strategy is to go for Anatolia first with DOW on Candar and Karamon on day one. Then using spies to convert all of the Greek lands, as they're mostly held by Lombard cultures at game start.
 
In most of my Byzantium games the Ottomans army gets destroyed by the Timurids, or it gets trapped deep in Timurid territory. I usually do a day one DOW on Kamaran and and Candar and annex them to afford more troops. I wait for the ottomans to get owned by the Timurids and then Dow them and capture everything they have. I have minting on full and usually am able to get a peace deal for multiple provinces before the ottoman armies get back from Timurids land.

Sometimes it takes a while for the ottomans to get beat, and sometimes they don't get beat at all. In my experience, i can usually fully defeat the ottomans within 10-15 years or so.


Or you can just start in I think 1404 and start out more powerful and the ottomans weaker.
 
The best Byzantium strategy is starting in 1405 you start with more provinces, Ottoman Empire is in a really poor position: it's navy is smaller, it has no vassals, majority of Anatolia has been balkanized and the European part of Ottoman EMpire is mostly in the hands of rebels.
 
I'm currently working on an AAR for Byzantium in 1399. Basically, what I did was to immidiaetly take Epirus when they are at war with Naples. This is doable if you micromanage the army day-for-day.

After that I'd suggest seeding patriotic rebellions in Greek terretories. If successful, they will defect to you. Then you should attack Candar. Now you should atleast have a chance if/when the Ottomans come knocking at your door
 
Huh. I'm surprised the rebel funding strategy is more popular. I think it's better to rely on your own troops to handle the Ottomans because unlike the rebels, you can keep the Ottoman army trapped in Asia. If the Timurids humiliate the Ottoman armies then rebels are a safer means for you to use, but if they can get one of their 10+K stacks back into Europe then the rebels don't stand a chance.
 
Huh. I'm surprised the rebel funding strategy is more popular. I think it's better to rely on your own troops to handle the Ottomans because unlike the rebels, you can keep the Ottoman army trapped in Asia. If the Timurids humiliate the Ottoman armies then rebels are a safer means for you to use, but if they can get one of their 10+K stacks back into Europe then the rebels don't stand a chance.
My reading was that the rebels are for handing the Lombard Catholic oppressors of the Greek people their backsides on a plate, not for beating up the Turks :)
 
Step 0: Always watch for the Ottoman armies to cross the Straits of Constantinople into Asia. You'll be looking to strike when the Ottomans are all in Asia, utilizing a superior navy to keep their armies trapped in Asia while you besiege their Greek territories. As you do the rest of these steps, keep an eye out for the Ottomans, especially their progress against the Timurids; that is usually the deciding factor in when to strike. Also, this requires some luck. It's okay to restart if you get an early (i.e. before the first two attacks, on Epirus and the Ottomans) Regency Council or other seriously unlucky happenings.

I agree this should be one of the most important things to watch out for Ottoman's are your biggest threat.

Step 1: Load your infantry onto your transports, move adjacent to Epirus and DOW with Reconquest CB the day after Naples does. You'll be able to land first if you don't waste a single day. Use the Neapolitan troops to help you win the siege and raise War Taxes, but do NOT annex until you're about to get forced into a white peace; you want the War Taxes for as long as possible.

I disagree with the war taxes tactic. Sounds really cheesy to me. Other day 1 targets are Karaman and Candar. If you wait they tend to ally Tripoli, Algeria and/ or Morocco. Can be fun totally messed up Castillian Africa.

Step 2: After getting to +3 Stability, set your treasury slider to full mint and do not pull it off until you attack the Ottomans the first time. You should be able to afford ~2-3 galleys per year. Build them and cogs until you have about 3 of each to the Ottomans' 2; the Ottomans usually build about 14/6 so you're looking at 20/10. Once you're done with that, build as many infantry (favoring Muslim infantry if they're available in Epirus, as they sometimes are; then Western infantry; then Eastern) as you can afford on full mint without accruing an annual deficit.

Yes minting is Very important My fleet usually consists of 1-2 Carracks, Ottoman Galleys + 5, similar number of Cogs. They start 2 naval techs higher so an even number of of ships usually in a loss for me. Invest in a basic Admiral. They may not have good stats but its better than no admiral. Once you get at least 6 cities Liberum Veto becomes an option. I attempt to wait until have 10-12 cities and use it in a war against the GH. When you have 6 cities and full minting the 15 extra regiments will cause you a massive negative income.

Step 3: After doing all of this, pull back the treasury slider as much as possible without accruing an annual deficit, put your fleet in the Sea of Marmara and attack the Ottomans the instant their armies are in Asia. You may find Serbian or Bosnian troops still in Europe, but they don't field more than about 3000 apiece, so your army should be able to handle them. Typical result is to see Byzantium reclaim all Ottoman Europe provinces except Edirne; if the Ottomans end up losing to the Timurids while you're beating them, you might be able to cross the straits and take Turkish provinces. If any patriots aligned with you pop up in Ottoman territory, let them seize provinces and let the provinces defect; no need to waste war score.

Remember your missions as well. They provide some good rewards. Another Things isolate Edirne so it can be taken. It is their capital.

Step 4: At this point, you're sufficiently on par with the Ottomans that you can afford to play more like a normal country (that is, not mint heavily to survive). Try to get a Master of Mint and the National Bank NI immediately to work off inflation, and focus on getting a solid foothold in Turkey from the second war with the Ottomans. The third war should see their annexation; this third war can be deferred since the second one will end the Ottomans as a threat to you, and should be deferred if you're past about 1535 or so, to give yourself time to recapture your Turkish cores from Ramazan et al (since those expire). Ignore any more Greek cores for right now. Important note for later: On the second war with the Ottomans, try to get Bosnia and Serbia de-vassalized. They stay allied with the Ottomans, so on the third war they should still come fight you, at which point you can vassalize them yourself.

Step 5: Once you own your ex-Ottoman cores and your Turkish cores, look around. You'll probably have to wait on Venice and vassals/puppets because you still won't be particularly wealthy and you'll need to be if you intend to field the requisite fleet to beat Venice. If you see something like Trebizond, an unprotected (i.e. expired guarantee) Greek/Crusader minor, pick them off. If you see someone like The Knights, which usually keeps no more than about 2000 troops, send a few Patriot spies if you have the money and let it defect. Basically, start slowly building up money to afford a respectable fleet (because galleys and cogs sure aren't) and looking for any opportunistic core snatches.

The knights and Cyprus both have lvl 2 forts. When you fund rebels only 1k pops to properly siege them the army has to have more than 2000 troops.

Step 6: Once you have the requisite navy, smash Venice. 100% war score should be more than sufficient to get Corfu, Naxos, Crete, Albania and Athens. If any of the above provinces are still owned by Venetian vassals instead of Venice, attack them and Venice with the Reconquest CB on the same day; doing so will keep the vassal as the war leader and allow for annexation.

Watch for Alliance chains Venice gets some pretty interesting ones. It is better to fight a land locked power (Bohemia or Austria) than Naval powers of Castille or maybe France.

Step 7: If you're reading this having made it through 1-6 in-game, congrats, you're on your feet. Outro note: Hordes suck. Watch your borders carefully, and ally with a vassal which does not border a horde; successful use of that trick can keep the Horde from ever attacking you.

No longer works with 5.2 sadly but the hordes get a little beaten down after the first TSC.
 
...Not so on needing 2k troops to siege a higher level fort. I've set siege to Ille de France in norther France and Avignon in southern France a multitude of time with only 1k troops and they start with a level two fort.
 
Now tell me, have those 1k sieges of level 2 forts ever actually progressed?
 
Now tell me, have those 1k sieges of level 2 forts ever actually progressed?

...As far as I know? I recall taking Avignon specifically with 1,000 cavalry before. Now you have me curious..Off to vanish in game for a bit!

Edit: Yeah, I feel goofy now. I set siege to Rhodes for a year with 1,000 infantry and made no progress. Added 1,000 more and had 13% at the end of the month. So yeah, need equal sides for siege. ^.^ My bad.
 
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Fund Patriots only summons 1,000 Greek Patriots to Cyprus and 1,000 to Rhodes. That is each time, so fund patriots in Rhodes twice and you have 2,000 Greek patriots who can set siege to the level 2 fort. :)
 
1405 DOW on Ottomans from day 1st. Grab european part and WAIT (you can and should lure out their navies and destroy it).

War Exhaustion will cause them to go into debt and finally bankrupt (there will also suffer from constant rebellions).

Then its just matter of grabbing their provinces and annexing them.

DONE
 
I started a new game as the Ottomans while I was typing the above post, put the game on max speed, and declared war on the Knights. I started by attempting to siege with 1,000 infantry for a year and failed. Added another 1,000 and started making progress. I then used console commands for spies and called Patriots in both Cyprus and Rhodes. Each only produced 1,000 Greek Patriots. Now maybe later in the game when they have build Constables/Dock/Marketplace/ect, it may be enough to spawn 2,000 Greek Patriots, but in the beginning it isn't.

That said! When I summoned my Greek Patriots, there were also 1,000 Cypriot Particularlists there. I don't know if they were there before or after my Patriots due to me fighting the French fleet, so my fleet was unable to uncover Cyprus till later. I watched as said Particularlists assaulted the fort until they ceased to exist, thus leaving only the 1,000 Greek Patriots, who could make no progress. In your game, the Patriots may have gotten there first and then managed to take the fort down with the help of the Particularlists.
 
All I know is that I called for rebels and then I got Cyprus. I think I got 3 rebels. Enough to kill the defender and siege and win.

I don't think I selected the patriot option. That's expensive. Instead I likely would have chosen the cheap option whatever that is.
 
Ahah, you are right. Support Revolt can also give you Greek Patriots (but you can also get Nationalists), which summons many more troops. I tried it in Athens and it summoned 6,000 men.

Edit: On a new game, I just did Support Revolt in Rhodes and no units were summoned at all. I did it in Cyprus and only 1,000 Greek Patriots.

I tried it a second time. Had the same results. Same results a third time as well.

Thirdattempt.jpg


1stAttempt.jpg


2ndAttempt.jpg


I tried it another seven times, same results every time.
 
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