Funny little tidbit, somehow the Abbaddids conquered 75% of Iberia and 50% of France in my current game.
In two weeks.
...Yes.
Funny little tidbit, somehow the Abbaddids conquered 75% of Iberia and 50% of France in my current game.
In two weeks.
...Yes.
I DO mind that Catholic Iberia falls every single time.
If left to the AI there is no possible outcome other than the muslims overruning the christians in no time.
Sicily sometimes stays christian and sometimes is invaded, at least in my expeirence is variable. But ive never seen the original realms stay christian after 1100.
This situation also causes other issue that many people complain: france and HRE blobbing.
tl;dr
The problem is not wether the muslims lose Iberia to the HRE. Its about having sometimes a succesful iberian kingdom
Catholic, well no not catholic, Catalan/Castillan Iberia Never truly survives, Even in a game Where i had castille survive and unite northern Spain it was the De Burgoynes who did it after one of them Married Alphonso's daughter and the Grandson was Born with an Permanent Alliance with a De Burgoyne France. I've also seen Galicia survive once because of a similar situation where Galicia came to be ruled by House Salian.
Mainly with their new tech buff they can survive now against the emirates, but when the Jihads get called they are in big trouble.
You should have stepped in when your neighbours are getting crushed, or at least taken northern Spain when they are vulnerable.
Yeah I know how you feel. I don't care that the Duke of Lancaster want's me to lower crown authority, I care that there are Muslims on my doorstep across the channel! And if they have the idea that they want to take England then I can't defend it properly, since there's no Naval Combat. If there was I'd basically be god with the navy I can raise :P.Originally Posted by The Blood Eagle
Anyway, I too wish that your vassals would try to attack the other religions that on our borders rather than plot against the king and sit around all day doing nothing. At least in my game when I became Tsar of Russia my vassals actually fought against the Pagans and took land. Hell, one even pushed through Azerbaijan and Georgia and moved into Asia minor, and Succeeded! I was surprised about this, while proud at the same time that one of my vassals was able to do this. Still have to finish that game though >.> But still, I'd kinda like that Ambition too. You know, when you look at it the Pope seems to care more about your lands being taken over by Muslims then your own Vassals do.
There's really no problem with Catholic/Catalan/Castillan Iberia dissapearing sometimes, that's good, adds some variation to the game. But when there's a 99.99% risk of annilation that's bad. Even worse is when the moors grow big enough to eat chunks of France. The elimination of christian Iberia atleast was a possibility back then, but the moors would NEVER reach Normandy in FRANCE!
Now it does add some difficulty to the players down there, but that's all not that bad. This game needs some challenging countries. But when the duke of Aquitanie gets eaten by Hammudids or Moors, that's too much.
Wouldn't it be better if the vassals joined their remaining armies with yours? After all, their survival is decided by the war..
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In my game, it took nearly a 100 years for the muslims to conquer Spain. It was most likely the HRE holding them off most of the time as the king of France succumbed to the Lollard faith rather sudden, which tore his entire country apart within a decade from Holy Invasions from Cathloics(me included, wanted a piece of the coastline as the king of Ireland). I guess the Muslims were busy trying to get into Italy and fighting the Byzantines.
All this lead to Croatia and Hungary becoming giant blobs in my game, along with HRE holding all of its original territories + Iceland and Norway. The Golden Horde seems intent on destroying the muslims rather than expanding westwards into western Europe, so they are expanding south instead. Very interesting developments to say the least, but I have already given up any hopes of trying to claim territory in Spain because as soon as I see any armies moving about down there, they are often larger than the 40 thousand I could muster, without Holy Order and mercenary help. My game is currently around 1260.
One thing to keep in mind, if AI were really that good, the entire western europe wouldn't stand a chance against HRE and its first ruler.
During my first reign of HRE I managed to take out 70% of Spain through Holy War, then 50% of the rest through king/emp of Aragon/Hispania (a couple cities through claim fabrication), 1/4 of France due to my mother passing the claims onto me and Flanders still under HRE territory.
I threw the entire Spain at my son, which easily made him the next primary successor, and I doubt there's anyway for the rest of my dynasty not be the primary successor afterward either.
I would've been able to take the entire Spain/France during the first 50 years if it weren't for the truce period and how we're only allowed to take one de jure land at a time.
Which would easily lead to the entire Northern Africa on the next ruler.
this is a little offtopic but really at this point in time it would be impossible for muslims to get past the pyrenees ? i thought that was a very grim possibility (for christians then) ? or was it only up until the battle of tours ?
but yes i agree variation would be nice
I started a game in 1337, when the reconquista was largely complete, but the muslims still managed to overrun all but a few counties of Iberia before the end of the game. Portugal was doomed from the start, Castille got a jihad against it and after that it was only a matter or time before Aragón would fall to the sultanate that now controlled North-West Africa and most of Iberia.
Jihads should happen in extremly extreme situations in iberia and very rarely
and the muslims shouldn't be together considering that the situation in iberia is not the creation of a direct fall of a caliphate because of a weakness from ouside but because of civil war
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Take a step back and think about why they call Jihads in the first place. Anything land owned by Muslims at any time is the sworn duty of all Muslims to reclaim. If you apply that to international law they would be entitled to a free casus belli to all of Iberia. Only the very, very northern coast wasn't conquered by 750 CE. So if earlier on a successful Holy war is waged for any of the Catholic kings, from that point on they could call Jihad.
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Try CK2+. Imho muslims are much more weaker there and christians often conquer Iberia. In one game the Spanish empire even invaded to Africa in 1250.
Nerf all kinds of Holy wars. It's in them that ALL the muslims team up against you. Muslims need to be as reluctant as catholics to join the Jihads/Crusades/Holy Wars. In the current state it makes expansion impossible as any spanish realm on the penninsula
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I've only played as a Muslim nation a few times, but one thing I think that they have going for them is they rate at which they produce offspring! When I was playing as the Zirids I had so many daughters to marry off, and the 4 wives meant that I could marry one for stats and three for allies. This is obviously just factor of the equation but something I wanted to add. Another thing I've observed is that if the Muslims cannot get past Iberia and Greece early game that they typically have bad late games late games due to mega decadence.
I can agree and disagree with claims of Muslims being OP... but in my scenario the Christians are overpowered. I am the Sultan of Sicily.. sounds strong, 'eh? Well, I only own the island of Sicily, Malta, and four counties in Italy. I can raise about 5,500 troops in my entire realm and I tried to conquer the last of Apulia.. my ancient enemies! I declare war on them.. they only have two provinces. How hard could it be against my 5,500 troops? OH LOOK, HOLY ORDERS. Suddenly I have 18,000 troops surging across my lands (no exxageration, they had that many troops), crushing my 5,500 levy army and assaulting all my holdings and just annihilating me.
So.. there are two types of Muslim rulers: 1. The rulers who have a large enough levy to survive the onslaught of Holy Orders. 2. The rulers who don't have a large enough levy to survive the onslaught of Holy Orders.
The latter get subjegated by Christian nations, and the first become generally stronger and stronger. So, hard to appease both.
I'm confused when people say the Muslims winning in Iberia was possible. Do they mean plausible, and if so over what time frame. As I understood it the situation in 1066 was that the Iberian kingdoms had made the border taifas their bitch.
Badajoz, Toledo, and Zamora were all paying tribute to Galicia, Leon, and Castille respectively. Essentially the Iberian Kingdoms acted as one, while the taifas were all split. The reason for the war that eventually lead to the reunification of the kingdoms was over a dispute over the tributary states.
Also, Barcelona is in an incredibly bad position where it gets ganged up with 3 holy wars and an invasion CB from Valencia, Mallorca, Africa and Mauritania at the same time, not to mention the occasional Sunni jihad, and by Shia Jihad I mean a really overpowered holy war CB for the Fatimids.
Its not that the Iberians are too weak or the Taifas too strong but simply that CKII does not model the behavior seen in 1066 Iberia.
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Well if you played as the Fatamids, you'd have no problem raising more than enough levies to combat holy orders. I think the key problem is that with once you have a blob, you can't be beat.
There should be more of a factor on raising massive levies somewhere in the mix for the HRE, ERE, or any of the Muslim blobs. There should be more of a negative factor in having so many troops at your disposal because once Muslims take the high levies of southern France its just impossible for any small fry to get involved.
With 1.06 we just tend to see Muslims aggressively blob more than Christians do.
To be fair it should just be as hard for HRE to hold North Africa as Muslims can hold on to Southern France.
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This. This so much. That thread needs some more love, because the whole idea was and is extremely cool. Watching so many different games doing so many different things was fantastic.
Wow. What a great idea. PLEASE post this somewhere that Paradox can see it. I love it.
Except that this is a blatantly ignorant statement. Just because YOU have never seen AI Iberia succeed doesn't mean that it falls "every single time." I've seen plenty of game where one of the kingdoms or another survived and even expanded south with no help from me. I'm not saying that muslims aren't slightly stronger in the early game, but to say that there's not possible outcome but failure is utter bull. The game is ahistorical from the moment you press play, and although Iberia is USUALLY taken over by Muslims, it does NOT mean that it always is, or that the Iberian kingdoms can't survive. It just needs a LITTLE bit of tweaking, and I'd hope the outcomes would be 33% of the time Iberia unites under Catholic state, 33% of the time Iberia unites under Muslims, and 33% a larger kingdom/empire (France or HRE) conquer Spain.
"What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger."
I think the main problem is the Invasion CB. As it is it is incredibly overpowered. Because the fact is a Co-religionist cannot help one defend. So if for example if French-help Aquitaine gets invaded by the Fatimids for example then they are screwed (also does not help that the French kings were in-fact retardedly weak in the beginning, think single couty and autonomous CA).
Added to the fact that the war score is IMO not setup right in vanilla. Because occupation matters far more than actual pitched battle (not historically realistic btw), for a large kingdom like Aquitaine, the Fatimids only need to bum rush like 4-5 holdings before France folds, and then boom, there goes your entire southern half of a kingdom. The war score should be more like CK2+ to remedy this.
Also I don't think it is fair for Muslims to be able invade regardless if said kingdom was already created or not. ie I think it should be OK to invade a kingdom if said kingdom has already been created, but not if it is not. Think about it, how could you invade modern day USA if there WAS no USA to begin with??? Also after invasion the kingdom title should disappear and not be held by the Muslim invader. Think about the Christian constraints for the Iberian kingdoms and Armenia, they are designed to not allow Muslim Emirs to spam kingdoms. But if you invade say Aragon and succeed then you usurped a Christian only kingdom. I had in my game where the Fatimids invaded Armenia and became Sultan of Armenia (not historically correct since Armenia has been one of the oldest christian kingdoms). After I took over Egypt the Fatimids were still blobbed together even though they had lost all Armenian territories as well as Egypt, but from a realistic POV they should have disintegrated since they lost the base of their power which was Egypt.
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