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Thread: King vassal becomes independent after dispose previous King(also my vassal)

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    Exclamation King vassal becomes independent after dispose previous King(also my vassal)

    What am I missing here? Why do a King vassal allowed to go independent after he/she dispose my previous vassal(also a king)? I can't join vassal war to defend my king vassal against his traitorous vassal. Worst, after the traitor goes independent, if I declare war on him to claim back the throne to my (used to be king) vassal, he/she then goes independent as well? Both vassals(the deposed king and the traitor) are of my dynasty but the kingdom mentioned is not de jure part of my empire.

    Is this a super-secret-super-advanced conspiracy from both vassals to go independent without having to induce my wrath?

  2. #2
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    Did you get a strong claim on the kingdom when it left?

    It does sound like a bug to me, probably because of the de jure issue you mentioned.

  3. #3
    I think that this is a bug - though patch notes said that vassals becoming independent due to depose liege was fixed? I had the same thing happen to me with a Duke. Slesvig is a 2 county duchy, the count deposed the liege and they went independent. The only way I could stop it was to revoke all the titles. Well, if it happened to me now I could probably fix it using the console by just reassigning all the titles. I think that would be a bit rough with kingdoms =/.

  4. #4
    thanks for answering guy. So maybe it really was a bug. I'll post in the technician support forum then.

  5. #5
    Regent-Custodian of the Light riknap's Avatar
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    it's NOT a bug.
    if the kingdom is not a de jure part of your empire, then the king has to at the very least be a de jure vassal (ie. his initial primary title is part of you de jure realm).
    if the deposer-king is NOT a de jure vassal, he becomes independent (I don't think dynasty has anything to do with it)
    of course, it could have been explained in the tooltips better...
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    How can you say its not a bug. You as the king have no control over a count declaring independence from his duke, or as an emperor you have no control over a duke declaring independence from his king. You cannot intervene, aside from assassinating one of them. The outcome of this war should not affect you, since you have no involvement in it.

    I refuse to believe that this is working as intended.

  7. #7
    Regent-Custodian of the Light riknap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arumba View Post
    How can you say its not a bug. You as the king have no control over a count declaring independence from his duke, or as an emperor you have no control over a duke declaring independence from his king. You cannot intervene, aside from assassinating one of them. The outcome of this war should not affect you, since you have no involvement in it.

    I refuse to believe that this is working as intended.
    if we are to talk about it in terms of gameplay, then it isn't really ideal.
    if we are to talk about it strictly in terms of the game's de jure mechanics, then it is working as intended.
    to be more accurate (regarding the OP's problem):

    a vassal kingdom that isn't de jure part of an empire can only remain a vassal so long as the vassal-king is a de jure vassal of the emperor (ie. his primary title is inside the de jure empire even if his kingdom isn't). since that de jure vassal-king was forcibly deposed and it's likely that the replacement is NOT a de jure vassal of the player-emperor, then the vassal-kingdom automatically secedes by gameplay mechanic.

    that is how the current game mechanics work, which makes it NOT a bug technically speking. now whether this is how the devs wanted it to work or was an oversight in design, is a different matter altogether (it's a scrappy mechanic in the same way that your 30 martial king who's crusading in Arabia can suddenly be leading a second army fighting pagans in Scandinavia the next day: it's WAD/working as designed)

    there's a difference between working as designed and working as intended of course.
    while the OP's problem of seceding kings is working as designed, I doubt if it's working as they intended it though (or maybe they did intend it to work that way, but paradox is quite fond of constantly tweaking mechanics with regular updates so it's hard to say what original intentions are )
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumonious View Post
    What am I missing here? Why do a King vassal allowed to go independent after he/she dispose my previous vassal(also a king)? I can't join vassal war to defend my king vassal against his traitorous vassal. Worst, after the traitor goes independent, if I declare war on him to claim back the throne to my (used to be king) vassal, he/she then goes independent as well? Both vassals(the deposed king and the traitor) are of my dynasty but the kingdom mentioned is not de jure part of my empire.

    Is this a super-secret-super-advanced conspiracy from both vassals to go independent without having to induce my wrath?
    Think about it this way:

    I'm the Duke of Galilee and my king swears fealty to some dude who sits in London on the other side of the world, safe from the Muslims I'm constantly having to slaughter. I know he's sending cash my poor peasants are working hard to generate to that stupid moron on that throne. I'm sick of it - he's not here and he has no idea what's going on.

    I get so sick of this "king" I serve (really, he's just a patsy of this moron emperor) that I decide that it'd be better to have someone else put on that throne that will pay attention to Jerusalem and the Holy Lands, not keeping some English Emperor happy. And when I succeed, that's what happens.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tux the Penguin View Post
    Think about it this way:

    I'm the Duke of Galilee and my king swears fealty to some dude who sits in London on the other side of the world, safe from the Muslims I'm constantly having to slaughter. I know he's sending cash my poor peasants are working hard to generate to that stupid moron on that throne. I'm sick of it - he's not here and he has no idea what's going on.

    I get so sick of this "king" I serve (really, he's just a patsy of this moron emperor) that I decide that it'd be better to have someone else put on that throne that will pay attention to Jerusalem and the Holy Lands, not keeping some English Emperor happy. And when I succeed, that's what happens.
    Then in that scenarios, are there an all knowing god keeping score and enforcing rules in the sky that PREVENT the Emperor of Britannia from intervening? I am not upset that the traitor vassal secede after deposing my vassal. I'm upset that I CAN NOT do ANYTHING to stop my vassal from seceding.

    You can't join war on your vassal side and when the war end even if you forcefully put your deposed King on the throne again he's still independent. And yet the crow was mine in the beginning. The situation is absurd. I don't care if this vassal is sick of his king for whatever reason but those are MY LAND. I put a king there(either by forcefully putting him on a foreign throne or by creating a brand new kingdom) as my vassal to take care of MY LAND. He's just some high level manager and nothing more. If this new manager think he can take MY PROPERTY after he kicks my manager out, he should be forced to fight me.

    if they allow me to intervene to save my vassal(those were MY land in the first place), I would be happy with it. If they force the vassal into war with me if he want to secede, I would be happy with it. If they allow a special casus belli to force the new king into my sphere again, I would be happy with it. Now I can't do anything to claim back MY land due to lacking a proper casus belli.

    To be honest, I regret deeply after I hanging out King tittles. Before I hang out my king tittle, there are couple of revolt now and then during succession but after that everything are fine. Now, my empire is a mess because vassal constantly go to war(using plot since my CL is high) with one another to depose King/claim kingdom. The best way to play is to destroy every titles above count.
    Last edited by Sumonious; 15-08-2012 at 23:24.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by riknap View Post
    it's NOT a bug.
    It is a bug. I was king of Cyprus (didn't have any de jure of it), but had also many other king titles, especially King of Serbia. But there was a revolt in Duchy of Temes and 2 counts tried to depose their liege. After Duke was defeated on of his vassals became indpendent. Temes is a part of Serbia so I forced him to became my vassal immidiately after I've noticed that he get away from my realm.

  11. #11
    Regent-Custodian of the Light riknap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind_Guardian View Post
    It is a bug. I was king of Cyprus (didn't have any de jure of it), but had also many other king titles, especially King of Serbia. But there was a revolt in Duchy of Temes and 2 counts tried to depose their liege. After Duke was defeated on of his vassals became indpendent. Temes is a part of Serbia so I forced him to became my vassal immidiately after I've noticed that he get away from my realm.
    huh. I see. now that's definitely ... wrong.
    while I'll still maintain that the king becoming independent of the empire it isn't de jure part of is likely WAD, a count being independent if it's still a de jure vassal is just wrong...
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  12. #12
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    I agree with Sumonious, give me the opportunity to either support my current king/duke if I favor him, or even allow me to support the rebelling party, as long as when the war ends they are all still my vassals. Or, if I'm not allowed to intervene, then the victor should stay a vassal. One duke attacking another duke doesn't cause him to go independent, why would a plot-started war be any different.

    Alternatively, I should at LEAST get a strong claim on ANY territory leaving my realm. This is customary, even as the defeated party in a defensive war. I still have a CLAIM to the land that was MINE.

    It simply cannot be WAD.

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