Venice and the HRE

[th3freakie]

To join or to leave, that is the question.

I am good friends and ally with the current Emperor (Bohemia) although they are useless against my real enemies (Milan, Turks) but they've been losing wars left and right so I doubt they'll be Emperors for long. They also drag me into their wars with Hungary/Croacia wich are costly and a nuisance, considering I don't want to eat Dalmatia just yet.

[delra]

This depends whether you are nice Venice or mean Venice. If your BB is low and you pick good diplomacy rulers, you will get plenty of cores on neighbouring lands and expand slowly and steadily. As you attack with a valid claim, being in the HRE the emperor wouldn't attack you. If you are mean Venice, you want to go against Milan and take their lands, then white peace the emperor (if not outright beat him), then exit those lands from the HRE slowly claiming Italy for yourself. In that case, it's easier to not be in the HRE and not incur penalties for unlawful land.

[Chronicler]

To join or to leave, that is the question.

I am good friends and ally with the current Emperor (Bohemia) although they are useless against my real enemies (Milan, Turks) but they've been losing wars left and right so I doubt they'll be Emperors for long. They also drag me into their wars with Hungary/Croacia wich are costly and a nuisance, considering I don't want to eat Dalmatia just yet.

Being emperor can be benificial for Venice, there are a lot of mechanisms you can use (not gamey stuff), to incrase your power.

But if you want to stay small and rich provincewise, you can become emperor and still have high manpower.

[th3freakie]

Being emperor can be benificial for Venice, there are a lot of mechanisms you can use (not gamey stuff), to incrase your power.

But if you want to stay small and rich provincewise, you can become emperor and still have high manpower.

Becoming Emperor was not in my plans indeed, and I think Merchant Republics (or any kind of Republics) cannot be elected anyway.

[Kurblius]

Stay out of the Empire. Otherwise the Unlawful territory event will fire every time you get uncored territory. Particularly since you say the Emperor is a weak Bohemia. If Austria becomes Emperor (usually the most likely alternative to Bohemia), they'll usually get missions to conquer northern Italy, meaning you'll be attacked even if you're in the HRE. A careful web of diplomacy with the Emperor's rivals is your best means of protection.

[Chronicler]

Becoming Emperor was not in my plans indeed, and I think Merchant Republics (or any kind of Republics) cannot be elected anyway.

Well, you don't want to stay merchant republic.

Go monarch, then become emperor and get it hereditary, and then switch back to republic.

[th3freakie]

Well, you don't want to stay merchant republic.

Go monarch, then become emperor and get it hereditary, and then switch back to republic.

I assume you mean well mate, but that sort of gamey unhistorical play really isn't my thing.

[Kurblius]

Merchant republics are just awesome. I stayed one as Venice right till the end of the game .

[Ramidel]

I'd recommend joining, but it depends on your goal.

If you intend to expand outside the Empire, join it and use Imperial status as a shield against everyone but Austria. If you plan to expand inside, then join for a different reason: because with Austria as Emperor, you do not want to be fighting the Emperor as Venice!

Forget the "unlawful territory" issue; it's a pain in the arse but not a fatal one unless you're gobbling up Imperial territory right and left (which you shouldn't be doing unless you have the might to defeat Austria). Stick to boundary disputes, Claims On Our Rivals, and Holy War against Muslim powers until you've got enough power to throw down with the Emperor.

[brifbates]

Forget the "unlawful territory" issue; it's a pain in the arse but not a fatal one unless you're gobbling up Imperial territory right and left (which you shouldn't be doing unless you have the might to defeat Austria). Stick to boundary disputes, Claims On Our Rivals, and Holy War against Muslim powers until you've got enough power to throw down with the Emperor.

This, although I'd just as soon go colonising/conquering in America or India/China as against the Muslims. Obviously without the free inheritance cores or diplovassalization it will be slightly harder for you to expand but if you want to take Italy you most definitely want to be part of the empire so you don't have to face off with the doomstacks every time you breathe too deeply, let alone glance in that direction. With missions and events it is quite feasible to expand within the HRE even without resorting to forcing PUs all over the place, you just have to pace yourself and sieze the opportunities that pop up.

[Chronicler]

I assume you mean well mate, but that sort of gamey unhistorical play really isn't my thing.

When the russians and the polish drove the ethnic germans out of Prussia and made it polish. That was gamey!

[verdantfang]

How Is that relevant to this? And btw there were still significant amounts of 'ethnic' Germans in Prussia even after the fall of the teutonic knights.

When the russians and the polish drove the ethnic germans out of Prussia and made it polish. That was gamey!

[Chronicler]

How Is that relevant to this? And btw there were still significant amounts of 'ethnic' Germans in Prussia even after the fall of the teutonic knights.

It was a joke? I was talking about after WW2, when they forcibly removed 18 million germans, 2-3 million died. Think that's what they call genocide and ethnic cleansing.

[ywhtptgtfo]

It was a joke? I was talking about after WW2, when they forcibly removed 18 million germans, 2-3 million died. Think that's what they call genocide and ethnic cleansing.

And this is what I call that trolling, since you made an out of the blue derail that's completely irrelevant.

As for the OP, a rule of thumb is to never ally a sick man unless your intention is to keep him alive. In your case, Bohemia doesn't do you any good as a weak Venice because you can't defend it an it can't defend you. I'd go with allying Switzerland, France, or Austria if that's possible. In terms of staying in HRE or not, I'd say no unless you really want the imperial integrity BB reduction (you can always be the Emperor with or without being in the HRE).

By not staying in the HRE, you can use patriot rebels to flip the HRE Lombards into your realm and not having to suffer from unlawful territory BB debuff. The way to do it is to aly a non-Lombard ally (can't be vassal or PU junior) and help him occupy enemy Lombard provinces. Afterwards, just sponsor patriot rebels on the occupied Lombard rebels and accept peace. Once the target nation breaks, you'd steal some or all of its Lombard provinces.

It is critical for a non-Lombard to do this as you can't sponsor patriot rebels on provinces occupied by same-cultured nations (i.e. yourself) and vassals will almost always revert control to you after they sieged a province.

Also, it's hard to pull this on bigger nations like Milan as they are hard to carpet with patriot rebels. You can help keep its troops down by supporting rebel (i.e. peasants, pretenders) to help it break but that's not totally reliable. In addition, you'd like to minimize its chance of having another nation clearing the rebels, so you might want to guarantee it, force it to revoke alliances and military access, and maybe sphere it as well

[th3freakie]

I see now the error of striking an alliance with Bohemia, but how can I change that now? :39:

[Chronicler]

And this is what I call that trolling, since you made an out of the blue derail that's completely irrelevant.

As for the OP, a rule of thumb is to never ally a sick man unless your intention is to keep him alive. In your case, Bohemia doesn't do you any good as a weak Venice because you can't defend it an it can't defend you. I'd go with allying Switzerland, France, or Austria if that's possible. In terms of staying in HRE or not, I'd say no unless you really want the imperial integrity BB reduction (you can always be the Emperor with or without being in the HRE).

By not staying in the HRE, you can use patriot rebels to flip the HRE Lombards into your realm and not having to suffer from unlawful territory BB debuff. The way to do it is to aly a non-Lombard ally (can't be vassal or PU junior) and help him occupy enemy Lombard provinces. Afterwards, just sponsor patriot rebels on the occupied Lombard rebels and accept peace. Once the target nation breaks, you'd steal some or all of its Lombard provinces.

It is critical for a non-Lombard to do this as you can't sponsor patriot rebels on provinces occupied by same-cultured nations (i.e. yourself) and vassals will almost always revert control to you after they sieged a province.

Also, it's hard to pull this on bigger nations like Milan as they are hard to carpet with patriot rebels. You can help keep its troops down by supporting rebel (i.e. peasants, pretenders) to help it break but that's not totally reliable. In addition, you'd like to minimize its chance of having another nation clearing the rebels, so you might want to guarantee it, force it to revoke alliances and military access, and maybe sphere it as well

I was merely trying to illustrate that everything could have happened in history. EU III still isn't a historical game, it's just based on an historical premise. The history you create yourself.
And as long as you don't abuse mechanics it's very okay to make Venice a monarchy so you can compete to become emperor.

[th3freakie]

I was merely trying to illustrate that everything could have happened in history. EU III still isn't a historical game, it's just based on an historical premise. The history you create yourself.
And as long as you don't abuse mechanics it's very okay to make Venice a monarchy so you can compete to become emperor.

I didn't know there was a moral issue in how we played a game

[ywhtptgtfo]

I was merely trying to illustrate that everything could have happened in history. EU III still isn't a historical game, it's just based on an historical premise. The history you create yourself.

You were more like citing the Holocaust as a justification that bullying is bad. Yes, that's how tangential your point is.

And as long as you don't abuse mechanics it's very okay to make Venice a monarchy so you can compete to become emperor.

The advantage of being the emperor is not that great since you can roll over anything in SP as Venice after doing a few of its missions.

I see now the error of striking an alliance with Bohemia, but how can I change that now? :39:

It's actually quite simple: Unally Bohemia

[th3freakie]

Yes, but how can I replace Bohemia is the question.

[simon chatfield]

It was a joke? I was talking about after WW2, when they forcibly removed 18 million germans, 2-3 million died. Think that's what they call genocide and ethnic cleansing.

thats your idea of a joke is it?