+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Freedom and Liberty

  1. #1

    Freedom and Liberty

    So, that's a bit off topic... Let's try, though, since APD features Freedom and Liberty national values.

    What is the conceptual difference between freedom and liberty ? Neither Google nor the Wiktionary really helped me, since i got contradictory definitions.
    So far I've understood that one is a matter of fact and the other is a matter of law and institutions - opposition between de facto and de jure... But which one fits which definition ?

    English being not my native language, I'm a bit lost.

    Thanks in advance
    "The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected." - G. K. Chesterton

    Join the Paradoxian Union of Lottocrats !

  2. #2
    Freedom is just the upgraded version. It's like Liberty+. Same goes for Might and Supremacy, Equality and Fraternity. The others are hybrid versions of the normal NVs. Like Glory is Might + Liberty and so on. Some combinations are incompatible, so there isn't any Order + Liberty NV or a Equality + Might one.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Caewil View Post
    Freedom is just the upgraded version. It's like Liberty+. Same goes for Might and Supremacy, Equality and Fraternity. The others are hybrid versions of the normal NVs. Like Glory is Might + Liberty and so on. Some combinations are incompatible, so there isn't any Order + Liberty NV or a Equality + Might one.
    I'm pretty sure he meant the meanings behind the words...

    Freedom is to have the ability to be free, liberty is to have the right to control your own actions. The differences are subtle even to a native English speaker, but essentially what I grasp of it is that freedom is slightly more general than liberty. Liberty only pertains to your actions, whereas freedom allows you to do anything.

  4. #4
    Mmmhh, ok, thanks. Things are a bit clearer in my head, though it's still not perfect.
    "The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected." - G. K. Chesterton

    Join the Paradoxian Union of Lottocrats !

  5. #5
    Second Lieutenant Nordenadler's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEuropa Universalis III: In NomineVictoria II: Heart of DarknessCK2: Holy KnightEU3 Collectors Edition
    500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    129
    Freedom is an old Germanic word, whereas liberty is a loan from Latin. That's the difference, really. There have evolved some slight and vague nuances as mentioned above due to the contexts the words have been used in historically; but largely, they're interchangeable outside of idioms and stock phrases, I think.

  6. #6
    Guy, you enter the wrong place. There are not so many differences between them.

  7. #7
    Liberty comes from a French word (they have the same latin origin), it should be a little bit better
    More seriously I think words with French origines are a little more snobbish in English than words from Germanic origines, perhaps freedom and liberty simply differ by the register of langage. But that's a non native speaker analysis.

  8. #8
    We needed different two words, we used two different words. We tend to be quite straightforward like that, and it's not worth trying to read deeper meanings into it.
    For every subtle and complicated question, there is a simple and straightforward answer, which is wrong.

    Creator of PDM:PoD for Heart of Darkness: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...ownload-thread
    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Creator of '1792' for March of the Eagles: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...69074-1792-mod

  9. #9
    General
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteDivine WindHOI3: Their Finest Hour
    Heir to the ThroneMarch of the EaglesSengokuVictoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    The worlds biggest town in the middle of nowhere
    Posts
    1,753
    Quote Originally Posted by Naselus View Post
    We needed different two words, we used two different words. We tend to be quite straightforward like that, and it's not worth trying to read deeper meanings into it.
    I though the difference was subtle difference, and for every subtle and complicated question, there is a simple and straightforward answer, which is wrong :P
    The Reich American Cold War, an upcoming alternate history mod for East vs West!

  10. #10
    Yeah, this isn't complicated tho :P
    For every subtle and complicated question, there is a simple and straightforward answer, which is wrong.

    Creator of PDM:PoD for Heart of Darkness: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...ownload-thread
    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Creator of '1792' for March of the Eagles: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...69074-1792-mod

  11. #11
    General
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteDivine WindHOI3: Their Finest Hour
    Heir to the ThroneMarch of the EaglesSengokuVictoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    The worlds biggest town in the middle of nowhere
    Posts
    1,753
    Quote Originally Posted by Naselus View Post
    Yeah, this isn't complicated tho :P
    Damn, I must find some way to make this confusing! XD

    But nas, I know this is a bit off topic, but can you please do me a favor and help me out figuring out why my flags dont work, I have my events half written and is super frustrating!
    The Reich American Cold War, an upcoming alternate history mod for East vs West!

  12. #12
    Private Herunaut's Avatar
    Hearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIDeus VultEU3 CompleteIron Cross
    Victoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Finnmark, Norway
    Posts
    12
    I could be utterly wrong here, but I always thought liberty referred specifically to political freedoms or at least that the term is generally only used in a political context, whereas freedom is a more general term. Whether or not this fits the "dictionary definition" of the two terms, it is at least my impression that it reflects common usage. This would also fit the pattern of Anglo-Saxon/French synonyms in the English language, where words of French origin tend to be used in the sense most relevant to those in power or at least the upper classes. As an example, types of meat (which the upper classes would eat) have French names (mutton, pork, beef) whereas the animals (which the lower classes raised) have Anglo-Saxon names (sheep, pig/swine, cow/bull/ox).

    On a side note, as has already been suggested, I suspect most native English speakers experience more than a little confusion too, if they ever stop to think about the difference.

  13. #13
    It's basically what others above have mentioned, namely that liberty is a latinate word and freedom is a germanic one, and they're both synonyms. For historical reasons (Latin Normans conquering Anglo-Saxons, the lingua franca of the European intelligentsia) latinate words are considered, at least in English, to be more intellectual and high-minded, whereas Germanic ones are cruder and have more basic, tangible connotations. Also, Germanic ones tend to flow better with English syntax, making them more practical for everyday uses, while latinate ones are considered more literary and artistic. Ex.: "I freed the slaves" vs. "I granted the slaves their liberty." So freedom tends to connote a more basic, tangible, material concept, while liberty is usually reserved for more abstract, usually political usages. That's why the vanilla NV would be "Liberty," as an abstract political ideal; freedom as a "national value" sounds slightly strange to my ears.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by macphineas View Post
    It's basically what others above have mentioned, namely that liberty is a latinate word and freedom is a germanic one, and they're both synonyms. For historical reasons (Latin Normans conquering Anglo-Saxons, the lingua franca of the European intelligentsia) latinate words are considered, at least in English, to be more intellectual and high-minded, whereas Germanic ones are cruder and have more basic, tangible connotations. Also, Germanic ones tend to flow better with English syntax, making them more practical for everyday uses, while latinate ones are considered more literary and artistic. Ex.: "I freed the slaves" vs. "I granted the slaves their liberty." So freedom tends to connote a more basic, tangible, material concept, while liberty is usually reserved for more abstract, usually political usages. That's why the vanilla NV would be "Liberty," as an abstract political ideal; freedom as a "national value" sounds slightly strange to my ears.

    Damn, I must find some way to make this confusing! XD
    Mission accomplished.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Magean View Post
    So, that's a bit off topic... Let's try, though, since APD features Freedom and Liberty national values.

    What is the conceptual difference between freedom and liberty ? Neither Google nor the Wiktionary really helped me, since i got contradictory definitions.
    So far I've understood that one is a matter of fact and the other is a matter of law and institutions - opposition between de facto and de jure... But which one fits which definition ?

    English being not my native language, I'm a bit lost.

    Thanks in advance
    The differance is mostly syntax. You use freedom like "I have freedom of movement" "freedom of speach" "freedom of expression" "freedom of religion". Freedom is used to connote specific concepts, like the examples, where as Liberty is a broader concept. Liberty is the sum total of all of the freedoms (aka. things like freedom of speach and the above). If I am at liberty, then I have all of my freedoms.

    The way I think about it is that there is just one broad banner, liberty, and then under that banner are smaller subdivisions, freedoms. But you can also use freedom to define a broad concept, so in that case they are synonomous.

    In terms of national values, than they are synonomous. But like Natulus said they just needed another word.

  16. #16
    I've always seen "Liberty" as a nationalized version of the word "Freedom." But yeah, they both mean the same thing, and American politicians use the words interchangeably.

  17. #17
    Captain Robotkiller's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCities in MotionDarkest HourEU3 Complete
    Divine WindFor The GloryFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest Hour
    Heir to the ThroneVictoria: RevolutionsRome GoldSemper FiSword of the Stars II
    Victoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessRome: Vae Victis500k club

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    American SSR
    Posts
    472
    Google definitions:

    Freedom - The power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint

    Liberty - The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views

  18. #18
    Master of Phantasms Yaromir's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteDivine Wind
    Hearts of Iron III CollectionHeir to the ThroneMajesty 2Victoria: RevolutionsVictoria 2
    Mount & Blade: Warband

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Durham,NC,Dixie
    Posts
    375
    It's confusing in the game. I guess one can look at the decision and see the effects and deduce that Freedom is a "more advanced" version of Liberty, but that's not easy to tell from the name alone (as they are essentially the same thing!). Then, given penalty you get for going to a "more advanced" NV, makes one wonder if it is worth it
    Anarchist Paradoxian | Slavic Paradoxian

    1 Clerk
    Nationality: Colonial Ruthenian
    Ideology: Anarchist/Pan-Slavic
    Issues: Eradication of Scarcity/Singularity
    Consciousness: -2.62 (+0.01)
    Violent Rampage Chance: 3% (-0.01)

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts