Freedom and Liberty

[Magean]

So, that's a bit off topic... Let's try, though, since APD features Freedom and Liberty national values.

What is the conceptual difference between freedom and liberty ? Neither Google nor the Wiktionary really helped me, since i got contradictory definitions.
So far I've understood that one is a matter of fact and the other is a matter of law and institutions - opposition between de facto and de jure... But which one fits which definition ?

English being not my native language, I'm a bit lost.

Thanks in advance

[Caewil]

Freedom is just the upgraded version. It's like Liberty+. Same goes for Might and Supremacy, Equality and Fraternity. The others are hybrid versions of the normal NVs. Like Glory is Might + Liberty and so on. Some combinations are incompatible, so there isn't any Order + Liberty NV or a Equality + Might one.

[fenwayb]

Freedom is just the upgraded version. It's like Liberty+. Same goes for Might and Supremacy, Equality and Fraternity. The others are hybrid versions of the normal NVs. Like Glory is Might + Liberty and so on. Some combinations are incompatible, so there isn't any Order + Liberty NV or a Equality + Might one.

I'm pretty sure he meant the meanings behind the words...

Freedom is to have the ability to be free, liberty is to have the right to control your own actions. The differences are subtle even to a native English speaker, but essentially what I grasp of it is that freedom is slightly more general than liberty. Liberty only pertains to your actions, whereas freedom allows you to do anything.

[Magean]

Mmmhh, ok, thanks. Things are a bit clearer in my head, though it's still not perfect.

[Nordenadler]

Freedom is an old Germanic word, whereas liberty is a loan from Latin. That's the difference, really. There have evolved some slight and vague nuances as mentioned above due to the contexts the words have been used in historically; but largely, they're interchangeable outside of idioms and stock phrases, I think.

[mhbdang]

Guy, you enter the wrong place. There are not so many differences between them.

[Archam]

Liberty comes from a French word (they have the same latin origin), it should be a little bit better
More seriously I think words with French origines are a little more snobbish in English than words from Germanic origines, perhaps freedom and liberty simply differ by the register of langage. But that's a non native speaker analysis.

[Naselus]

We needed different two words, we used two different words. We tend to be quite straightforward like that, and it's not worth trying to read deeper meanings into it.

[Connor Mulhern]

We needed different two words, we used two different words. We tend to be quite straightforward like that, and it's not worth trying to read deeper meanings into it.

I though the difference was subtle difference, and for every subtle and complicated question, there is a simple and straightforward answer, which is wrong :P

[Naselus]

Yeah, this isn't complicated tho :P

[Connor Mulhern]

Yeah, this isn't complicated tho :P

Damn, I must find some way to make this confusing! XD

But nas, I know this is a bit off topic, but can you please do me a favor and help me out figuring out why my flags dont work, I have my events half written and is super frustrating!

[Herunaut]

I could be utterly wrong here, but I always thought liberty referred specifically to political freedoms or at least that the term is generally only used in a political context, whereas freedom is a more general term. Whether or not this fits the "dictionary definition" of the two terms, it is at least my impression that it reflects common usage. This would also fit the pattern of Anglo-Saxon/French synonyms in the English language, where words of French origin tend to be used in the sense most relevant to those in power or at least the upper classes. As an example, types of meat (which the upper classes would eat) have French names (mutton, pork, beef) whereas the animals (which the lower classes raised) have Anglo-Saxon names (sheep, pig/swine, cow/bull/ox).

On a side note, as has already been suggested, I suspect most native English speakers experience more than a little confusion too, if they ever stop to think about the difference.

[macphineas]

It's basically what others above have mentioned, namely that liberty is a latinate word and freedom is a germanic one, and they're both synonyms. For historical reasons (Latin Normans conquering Anglo-Saxons, the lingua franca of the European intelligentsia) latinate words are considered, at least in English, to be more intellectual and high-minded, whereas Germanic ones are cruder and have more basic, tangible connotations. Also, Germanic ones tend to flow better with English syntax, making them more practical for everyday uses, while latinate ones are considered more literary and artistic. Ex.: "I freed the slaves" vs. "I granted the slaves their liberty." So freedom tends to connote a more basic, tangible, material concept, while liberty is usually reserved for more abstract, usually political usages. That's why the vanilla NV would be "Liberty," as an abstract political ideal; freedom as a "national value" sounds slightly strange to my ears.

[moldeh]

It's basically what others above have mentioned, namely that liberty is a latinate word and freedom is a germanic one, and they're both synonyms. For historical reasons (Latin Normans conquering Anglo-Saxons, the lingua franca of the European intelligentsia) latinate words are considered, at least in English, to be more intellectual and high-minded, whereas Germanic ones are cruder and have more basic, tangible connotations. Also, Germanic ones tend to flow better with English syntax, making them more practical for everyday uses, while latinate ones are considered more literary and artistic. Ex.: "I freed the slaves" vs. "I granted the slaves their liberty." So freedom tends to connote a more basic, tangible, material concept, while liberty is usually reserved for more abstract, usually political usages. That's why the vanilla NV would be "Liberty," as an abstract political ideal; freedom as a "national value" sounds slightly strange to my ears.

Damn, I must find some way to make this confusing! XD

Mission accomplished.

[General Pauper]

So, that's a bit off topic... Let's try, though, since APD features Freedom and Liberty national values.

What is the conceptual difference between freedom and liberty ? Neither Google nor the Wiktionary really helped me, since i got contradictory definitions.
So far I've understood that one is a matter of fact and the other is a matter of law and institutions - opposition between de facto and de jure... But which one fits which definition ?

English being not my native language, I'm a bit lost.

Thanks in advance

The differance is mostly syntax. You use freedom like "I have freedom of movement" "freedom of speach" "freedom of expression" "freedom of religion". Freedom is used to connote specific concepts, like the examples, where as Liberty is a broader concept. Liberty is the sum total of all of the freedoms (aka. things like freedom of speach and the above). If I am at liberty, then I have all of my freedoms.

The way I think about it is that there is just one broad banner, liberty, and then under that banner are smaller subdivisions, freedoms. But you can also use freedom to define a broad concept, so in that case they are synonomous.

In terms of national values, than they are synonomous. But like Natulus said they just needed another word.

[rorlegion]

I've always seen "Liberty" as a nationalized version of the word "Freedom." But yeah, they both mean the same thing, and American politicians use the words interchangeably.

[Robotkiller]

Google definitions:

Freedom - The power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint

Liberty - The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views

[Yaromir]

It's confusing in the game. I guess one can look at the decision and see the effects and deduce that Freedom is a "more advanced" version of Liberty, but that's not easy to tell from the name alone (as they are essentially the same thing!). Then, given penalty you get for going to a "more advanced" NV, makes one wonder if it is worth it