West Balkan historical fixes(second review)

[Mario Maric]

Greetings,

Here are some historical inaccuracies that should be and easily could be corrected in the west balkan region.
This time I will mainly focus on Croatia because Serbia and Montenegro are represented correctly and my suggestions on Bosnia were implemented

So our journey starts here:

I am very disappointed and sad to see the Dalmatian culture group remained after all my arguments proved it has no place on a map after the 12th century(at the latest).
I understand the flavor it adds and the work put into implementing the culture group ingame, but then you might as well put Hunnic or Avar culture in Hungary, Phoenician on the Tunis area or better yet a brand new Cro-Magnon culture group stretching from southern France across Spain to Morroco-_-

Sibenik province

- in the 1356. start date Venice owns this province, this is very inaccurate because the expansion of Venice from owning the islands and coastal cities exclusively to moving inland was a result from their wars with the Ottoman empire which took the lands a couple of centuries later.
-Dalmatian culture?! Not only was the area represented in the province always a slavic majority the second they came there in the 7th century, but Sibenik itself was founded by a slavic population during the kingdom of Croatia(current opinions points to the reign of Kresimir IV)

-The name and capital of this province should absolutely be changed. It never had any importance to be worthy of a province capital. Bribir was the most important city in the province until 1322. the battle of Bliska. After that almost the entire province comes into direct control of the Nelipac family(their absolute rule over the province lasted until 1436.) which became very powerful after the decline of the Subic family. Their most important town, military fortress and feudal capital was Knin so i believe that the name of the province and the capital should definitely be Knin as it remained the most important fortress even after the decline of the mentioned family because the only road connecting the Dalmatian coast to Lika, and central-northern Croatia went through the city and the parallel roads went very near it.

Srem province

-This is represented correctly with the Hungarian culture and ownership, but what i do not understand is why is the provinces slavic name used instead of the Hungarian version like the other Hungarian provinces.


Names

In case you eventualy cave in and remove the Dalmatian culture, these are the Slavic names that should be used:

Zara = Zadar, maybe Primorje
Spalato = Split
Ragusa = Dubrovnik(mentioned as such 1189. by Bosnian ban Kulin, 1215. by Serbian Zhupan Stephan and after that most slavic-origin documents refer to the city using that name)

That is all for now
BTW, thank you for the hard work you put in this mod, it is truly the best EU experience to date

Edit:

I just noticed you put a culture change to Croatian after 1358. Zadar peace. I find this interesting because if I start with the 1356. start date Venice always keeps the provinces so i do not understand the reason behind this.

[gigau]

- Sibenik : shall carefully look at it. But your arguments look sound.

- Srem : what would the name be then ?

- Dalmatian culture : flavour indeed. Going to "phenician" and "cro-magnon" cultures to make a point is not the best ay to convince me

- Treaty of Zadar : main fact is that i forgot to add the war at start of game. Shall correct that.

[Mario Maric]

- After looking a bit longer, i stay with my opinion of Knin as the capital, but the name of the province is very tricky because the area consisted of several zupa-s each equal in power. The name Knin for the province would be most convenient for the time because as i said the family that ruled the province was seated there + the expansion of the term "Dalmatia" to the province happened with Venice capturing it from the Ottomans several centuries later.

-Szerémség or Szerém for Hungarian. Syrmia or Sirmium if you chose to be neutral and go Latin

-Agreed, a bit over the top from my side, but I became very allergic to the whole culture group because of this mod I actually start my games from February 1358. now

-About that war in startdate...

The thing is, will the culture group change after the war if Hungary-Croatia is successful?
Will Hungary directly take control of the provinces instead of returning it to Croatia and creating the Republic of Ragusa/Dubrovnik?
What will prevent Hungary from taking Istria from Venice every single game?

I mean...there are several other examples of historical compromise in your mod that are completely justified from my point of view because the game itself is more important than going 100% historical and risk ruining the rest of the timeline because of it.
Are these 2 years of Venice controlled eastern Adriatic worth all the problems that come with it?
Considering that Venice did not regain influence of ownership over the eastern shore of the Adriatic sea until 1409. would not simply putting Venetian cores in the provinces serve a greater purpose of simulating the next several decades and even centuries of Venetian struggle for domination of the Adriatic in comparison with correctly showing only 2 years of Venetian ownership that could potentially cause a series of unhistorical clusterwars between Hungary and Venice and their crew of allies?

I am just asking, if you have a solution to these things, or if I am thinking to much of this just ignore the paragraph

[gigau]

I am just asking, if you have a solution to these things, or if I am thinking to much of this just ignore the paragraph

I wouldn't ignore your paragraph : i appreciate you trying to improve the mod. And even if i ultimately don't do exactly what you say, it stimulates reflection and can only be fruitful.

I've done such a feature for the Britanny War of Succession : if France or England conquer a province in Britanny while still having respectively Blois and Montfort as vassals, they automatically give the provinces to their vassal. My idea would be, if Hungary takes a Dalmacian province, it'd automatically give it to Croatia. Before or after this change of ownership.
Culture would also shift automatically to the slavic group (this is already implemented).
Regarding Istria, i'm not sure what to reply without proper testing.

[Choccookies]

From what I've been able to tell control of Sibenik shifted many times from the 12th to 15th centuries. I can't find anything definite either way but it does appear to be part of the territory ceded in the treaty of Zadar which would suggest that Venice controlled in prior to this point.

I feel in this case it is important to have Venice controlling the eastern Adriatic. Hungarian victory in 1358 was by no means certain and this is a game of what ifs, what if Venice defends its territories successfully? I definately agree that these territories IF won by Hungary should be given to Croatia but I do not think forcing Venice to lose them is the right way to go.

[Gáborka]

Szerém is a province, Szerémség is a region. So Szerém would be a better choice

About Dalmation culture. As far as I know, the language of Dalmatian, which is actually familiar to Italian was spoken in these times. Actually As I can remember, it extinced like in the 19th century. So if the point is to put a stress on that there were slavic and also italic (or latin) elements in the population, than - I think - it is fair enough. Anyway, MArio is right about one thing: it is very funny that the dalmatians have better relations with Hungary than with the Croats in the game. It is represented that when as Hungary I conquered the dalmatian provinces for Croatia (I didn't want to annex them so far), these dalmatian provinces didn't want to became croatian. However after I inherited Croatia, some 10-20 years after every (!!!) dalmat provinces became Hungarian

[Mario Maric]

Sibenik is a city. You are right about the city changing owners but the province that is represented as Sibenik ingame is the later area of inner Dalmatia and the entire province aside from the cities Sibenik and couple of other shore towns remained in Croatia from the 7th century all the way to 16th-17th century when Ottomans became the first to remove it from Croatian control and then after Venice took it from them expanding inland for the first time in their history of dominating the Adriatic.

Dalmatian culture...for the love of god i have been over this to many times-_-

Dalmatians as a separate group stopped being a majority in these provinces by the 11th century(some areas even earlier) and stoped being of ANY sort of importance by the 12th - early 13th century.
Ragusa itself(being the poster boy city for this nonsence) had only 1 dalmatian noble family in the senate of 15 families(the number changed ofc), others being slavic as early as the mid 12th century.

The language and people remained only in the inner islands farther from the shore and their numbers became very low numbering only hundreds and later only a couple of families on Dugi, Krk and Losinj islands.

I seriously don't understad where this ridiculous myth even came from!

Edit: Sibenik is a shore town not of any serious importance in that time so taking the whole area of central Croatia because the shore cities changed owners is not very accurate considering that the vast majority of the population lived on the areas of the province that remained in constant ownership of Croatia

[Gáborka]

Thank you Mario, as a Hungarian it is shame, that I had no idea about these.

[Mario Maric]

Haha, don't be so hard on yourself, my knowledge of Hungary's history is inadequate at best(especially considering how long my country spend along it and under it in political unions )

I am not sure, but after some reading, I am seriously starting to suspect that the separation of coastal cities from the Croatian and Serbian historical heritage by falsely attributing it to the more "Italian" Dalmatians is a direct result of Italy's propaganda during the first half of the 20th century to justify it's territorial aspirations and claims on the eastern Adriatic.

I was amazed to see so much misinformation on the internet(including a couple of articles on wikipedia, one of which is still upO_O) after encountering MEIOU and further researching the subject.

Funny thing how historical myths die so hard...there are still so many of them...

But still, if Dalmatian culture is to remain that is the dev's choice and right as a developer.
If someone does not like it, just set the startdate to February 1358.

What is 100% and absolute when we are talking about historical accuracy is the fact that the province currently named Sibenik should definitely remain in Croatia's control, because the very same area represented by the province IS medieval Croatia itself and from that area Croatia expanded. Remove it and Croatia is nothing but the kingdom of Slavonia along with the Lika banate.

Edit:

Finally, i found a detailed map that in more detail explains what I am trying to say:

http://www.learn.columbia.edu/medmil...annsIIpg70.jpg

The map is not perfect but its the only one not made in photoshop by a pseudohistoric nutjob that lives under a rock brought from mount Balkan itself that i could find online.

1. Notice what area is represented as Croatia(don't pay attention on Slavonia), now remove the part that is in "Donji Kraji" province(under Bosnia in game) and remove the northwestern part that is a separate Lika-Gacka-Krbava political entity historically autonomous but under Croatia from the 8th century onwards...what province remains?

2. Notice the holdings of Venice. Those are the holdings they wanted, and after they got it or lost it their aspirations did not change until this war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morean_...es_in_Dalmatia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Karlowitz

Second edit:

the map shows Zadar(Zara) and Spalato(Split) in Croatian ownership. This is of course partially true because the rise of the Subic family resulted in much of the coastal cities being taken back under the Kingdom of Croatia(the bans, viceroys of which were Pavao Subic and later his sons) for several decades but after 1322. to 1353. both Zadar and Split soon fell under Venetian control.
Btw, it was the 6th time Venice had to besiege Zadar to take it back
They must have been very angry at that city rebelling and betraying them constantly

[gigau]

Okay. Gave back Sibenik to Croatia until 1420 and King Ladislaus.

[DanubianCossak]

If its worth anything what Mario told you about Dalmatian culture thingy is also what i was taught in school.

[gigau]

Well, i've changed the province names to the slavic versions. But i've kept the Dalmatian culture, but just for Venetian rule. See it as a "border" culture [i]à la[/] Bourguignon/Burgundian shift.

[Mario Maric]

That will be enough, if the culture shift and province shift from ruler to vassal work.
Otherwise, constant conquest casus belli wars between Hungary and Venice. I tried some things, but Venice cant defeat Hungary in land, and Hungary can't reach most of Venice's provinces so stalemates happen until cascade alliances happen.

All in all I am sure that there are other things and areas of the mod that deserve more attention. Focus on this matter should be kept only if there are no other subjects that are causing greater problems or are more unhistorical.

By the way, take all the time you need, you don't have a deadline, keep up the good work

Edit:

Again, the 1420 date you mentined...Dalmatia was sold, not the province that is represented by Sibenik. The province of Dalmatia in medieval times was limited to the islands and coastal cities.

Sibenik as a city did come under Venetian rule as did almost every single coastal city on the eastern Adriatic coast, but the province currently represented by the name "Sibenik" should definitively, i repeat, definitively stay in Croatian rule until it is lost in the hundred years Croatian-Ottoman war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred...%93Ottoman_War

This map shows clearly what I am trying to say:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...d_3_300109.jpg

As you can see the Ottoman conquest of Croatian lands is automatically added to the Bosnian Pashaluk. The area you see as Venetian territories is the very same Dalmatia they gained in 1420 and it did not change until Venice started expanding inwards conquering Ottoman controlled Croatia, THUS, expanding the name and meaning of "Dalmatia" to the inland area and this region name change remained in exact borders until this day.

What im trying to say, if you want to keep the Dalmatian culture, thats fine. But for the love of God leave Sibenik province Croatian culture no matter what ruler, it burns just thinking about such an unhistorical abonination


Second edit:
I finally found the map of Dalmatian language dialects to paint a picture of which areas are documented of having a larger population of Dalmatian language speakers(medieval areas partially or mainly populated by Dalmatians) so you can see which areas actually covered your "flavoured"( ) Dalmatian culture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ian_Cities.png


Cough,cough*look at Sibenik province* cough cough....

[gigau]

I based my map on this :

A Wikipedia map of the Republic of Venice

[Mario Maric]

:O

The map has the dates right but the areas are all messed up

Kotor(Cattaro) bay area is not even shown and it was a mayor port in more or less Venetian hands from 1420 til Napoleon decided to play Risk.

Republic of Ragusa is shown so incorrectly it makes my eyes bleed.

And just as I expected the region of Dalmatia is shown in the expanded version after Venice conquered the inland area from the Ottomans and expanded the name of Dalmatia to that area.

So no. Sibenik province should definitely stay in Croatian control until the Ottomans take it and hold it until Venice takes it "back".

[gigau]

Sibenik province should definitely stay in Croatian control until the Ottomans take it and hold it until Venice takes it "back".

Could you give me the exact dates, please ?

[Mario Maric]

Alright,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred...ar#Battlefield

"After the 1493 loss at Krbava, the Ottomans started the occupation of significant forts: Knin and Skradin fell in 1522."

"By the end of 1540, the Ottoman Empire occupied the Croatian possessions between Skradin and Karin, eliminating them as a buffer zone between the Ottoman and Venetian territory in Dalmatia."

The area was in Croatian control from the 7th century untill 1522. if you make Knin the capital of the province(plus you get an exact historical date), or 1540 if you consider the occupation of the majority of the area the official transfer from Croatian to Ottoman rule.

The Ottomans occupied the province until 26 January 1699:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Karlowitz

"Venice obtained most of *present day* Dalmatia along with the Morea (the Peloponnese peninsula of southern Greece), though the Morea was restored to the Turks within 20 years by the Treaty of Passarowitz."

*text* = they should insert this


Edit: I managed to found the exact date of the fall of Knin, 29 May 1522

[gigau]

Done, thanks