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Thread: PU Juniors Converting to Different Religion

  1. #1

    PU Juniors Converting to Different Religion

    I have noticed that the junior partner in a PU can be banned by the Pope, resulting in conversion, without the senior partner having any effect. This makes no sense, since the ruler is the same person, leaving you in a situation in which the monarch is both Catholic and Protestant depending on where they are. There should really be a check on any conversion event that prevents it firing for a junior partner.

    Also, logically: If a Catholic monarch inherits the throne of a protestant nation(or any other permutation thereof), that nation's state religion should switch to that of the senior partner(since the state religion in a monarchy is the religion of the monarch).

    It would be one thing if there were an 'enforce unity' diplomatic option, but there is no way to get them back, and it happens alot: 3/4 of my PU partners in my current game.

    Note: I'm only talking about the state religion changing on PU, not province religion(which shouldn't change unless through missionaries as usual)
    Last edited by Count deMonet; 01-08-2012 at 10:22.

  2. #2
    Second Lieutenant B1rm0n's Avatar
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    Also, if the senior partner is in a war, in which he doesn't lead, and accepts a peace offer, the junior partner continues to fight, which can be very dangerous. Is it intentional?

  3. #3
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    Also too, if the junior partner changes to a heretical faith, therefore tanking relations, it would be nice if the senior partner were notified.

  4. #4
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    All that will require a little investigation, as i've not gone into much modding PUs yet. Some of the things you talk about would be better placed as hard-coded features of the union.
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  5. #5
    I was thinking that, since the countries are flipping religions as a result of the 'Banned by the Pope' Event, you could add the modifier 'is junior partner=NO' to the firing conditions for the event, making it impossible for a junior partner to switch religions on their own. There would probably need to be a separate event that would fire for juniors, bringing them along if their senior partner switched.

    I've never made an event though, so I'm no expert...

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Count deMonet View Post
    Also, logically: If a Catholic monarch inherits the throne of a protestant nation(or any other permutation thereof), that nation's state religion should switch to that of the senior partner(since the state religion in a monarchy is the religion of the monarch).
    That's not really true. For instance, James VII and II of England, Scotland, and Ireland was Catholic, and although it looked like he was trying to establish Catholicism (at least to some), the reality is that he never accomplished it. All three realms remained officially Protestant his whole reign.

    Moreover, when James VI of Scotland (a Presbyterian nation, in game terms Reformed, I think) took the throne of Anglican England (Protestant in game terms, I think) the religious settlements in both nations remained the same.

    Perhaps what you're saying would be true in an absolute monarchy, but not in all monarchies by any means.
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  7. #7
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    And despotic ones, I'm assuming.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by SamStarrett View Post
    That's not really true. For instance, James VII and II of England, Scotland, and Ireland was Catholic, and although it looked like he was trying to establish Catholicism (at least to some), the reality is that he never accomplished it. All three realms remained officially Protestant his whole reign.

    Perhaps what you're saying would be true in an absolute monarchy, but not in all monarchies by any means.
    Ireland was officially Protestant?

    The game already models the situation you describe. James' England would have been dark blue(Protestant) with yellow stripes(Catholic king), and low conversion chances due to high revolt risk would have kept it that way. In the end, his gov't fell to what, in game terms, would have been pretender rebels or religious zealot rebels led by William of Orange.

    In a monarchy:
    State Religion: religion of the monarch (L'etat c'est moi) - parliamentary governments do get complicated, but there could be an added +revolt risk triggered modifier for Admin/parliamentary monarchies to represent the increased governmental tensions
    Province Religion: religion followed by the people and nobles living there.

    The people's religion should not change just because a monarch of a different religion assumes the throne, but the 'state' religion should be the same in every nation ruled by a particular monarch. This would also represent the tensions a Protestant country ruled by a Catholic monarch(or any other combo) would experience.

    Perhaps a -% conversion chance for a PU junior would be good, to prevent the population from being too quickly converted by a foreign monarch though.

    The basic issue that I have is that a monarch, being one person, should be treated as such, and have the same traits regardless of which of their countries they are in: religion, excommunication, skills, etc.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by B1rm0n View Post
    Also, if the senior partner is in a war, in which he doesn't lead, and accepts a peace offer, the junior partner continues to fight, which can be very dangerous. Is it intentional?
    I was thinking about this and a funny thing happenned to me: I entered a war against Sicily to PU them, and they were at war with the Mameluks. The war ended up well, and they're now a junior parner. but still at war with the Mameluks, and loosing badly. I can enter the war, but I'm actually thinking I should be forced to do so, to protect them.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by NorwayBernd View Post
    And despotic ones, I'm assuming.
    Probably, although one might see a little more resistance there, depending on just what it is "despotic" monarchies are modeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count deMonet View Post
    Ireland was officially Protestant?
    Yup. That was the whole problem. The (Anglican) Church of Ireland was not disestablished until 1871. A majority of the populace was Catholic, and they were tolerated to a greater or lesser degree depending on how enlightened the ruler was at the time, but the state church was Protestant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count deMonet View Post
    The game already models the situation you describe. James' England would have been dark blue(Protestant) with yellow stripes(Catholic king), and low conversion chances due to high revolt risk would have kept it that way. In the end, his gov't fell to what, in game terms, would have been pretender rebels or religious zealot rebels led by William of Orange.
    But the Church of England all through his reign was still the established Church. Her bishops still served in Parliament, her clergy still answered to the King as Supreme Governor...

    Quote Originally Posted by Count deMonet View Post
    In a monarchy:
    State Religion: religion of the monarch (L'etat c'est moi)
    Again: Louis XIV was an absolute monarch. Most historical monarchies were not absolute. In an absolute monarchy, what you say may be theoretically true (how true it is in practice depends on how effective the king's absolutism is). Moreover, Louis XIV was (at least theoretically) bound by the Fundamental Law of the Kingdom of France, which, among other things, stipulates that "The King is Roman Catholic. He could not have converted France to Protestantism, at least not legally. Many (arguably justified) rebellions would certainly have resulted from any such attempt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count deMonet View Post
    - parliamentary governments do get complicated, but there could be an added +revolt risk triggered modifier for Admin/parliamentary monarchies to represent the increased governmental tensions
    Triggered by what though? Recent conversion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Count deMonet View Post
    The people's religion should not change just because a monarch of a different religion assumes the throne, but the 'state' religion should be the same in every nation ruled by a particular monarch.
    But that's just not how it happened historically. In Scotland to this day the monarch worships with the Presbyterians, despite being an Anglican in England. And if you think Scotland and England had a unified state Church under James VI and I, take a look at the history of his attempts to introduce episcopacy in Scotland.
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  11. #11
    @up: I agree that converting whole nation "because it's rulers desire" is unrealistic- but as well unrealistic is making cultural shift (from Hungry to Byz empire ) or converting France in single war to Orthodox (damn sometime there's even space for forcing PU with them). So I suggest to make country VERY unstable after such conversion (also one made due to war), but possible (if I have CB for PU I usually:
    1) Force religion
    2)wait 5 years
    3)Force PU)
    I'm not saying it's very realistic, but converting countries by war could be applied to minors not huge blobs like France or England.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mixxer5 View Post
    @up: I agree that converting whole nation "because it's rulers desire" is unrealistic- but as well unrealistic is making cultural shift (from Hungry to Byz empire ) or converting France in single war to Orthodox (damn sometime there's even space for forcing PU with them). So I suggest to make country VERY unstable after such conversion (also one made due to war), but possible (if I have CB for PU I usually:
    1) Force religion
    2)wait 5 years
    3)Force PU)\
    I do this too. Sometimes i don't even wait the 5 years if I can quickly recover the stability.

    the biggest problem that I have has nothing to do with the unification of 2 countries with different religions and it is getting missed in this discussion:

    under the current system, a PU junior that shares a religion with its senior partner can switch to a different state religion, and there is currently no way for the senior partner to get them back.

    Take for example Catholic Castille forming a PU with Catholic Aragon. Suddenly the gov't of Aragon can switch to Lutheran, despite the ruler still being Catholic in Castille. The people in Aragon are still Catholic, the King is still Catholic, but the gov't becomes Lutheran and there is nothing that Castille can do to keep their Aragonese subjects from being oppressed and converted by their own gov't.
    Last edited by Count deMonet; 10-08-2012 at 04:26.

  13. #13
    So this should be simply blocked by adding to events/decisions line about not being junior. Senior should get events of spreading of Protestanism in Junior country and make own decisions.

    BTW- If we're talking about PUs:

    1. When senior i inherits junior, he gets cores on all provinces of same culture group- I've no problem with that. But if senior inherits some different CG junior than he gets simply pain in a**. How about granting at least first step towards core for him? Or some other province modifier decreasing RR and increasing manpower and taxes? This junior country was subject to senior from some time anyway- it's big change to be part of different country- but much less if it's by diplomacy (so annexing vassal should grant such half-cores too) than by war.

    2. Relations between senior and junior: I don't entirely get this thing. Junior partner might be rebellious of course, but no one would openly (except starting a rebellion) start sending insults and try to otherwise insult senior. Mostly because senior is usually much bigger and much more dangerous than junior. And insulting/trying to openly weaken sovereign... Well- I'd gladly visit such noble with my army and explain him that he's doing wrong. So if Junior wants to revolt by some reason- fine. Senior should get event with two options:

    a.) granting freedom to junior, also making white peace for them with everybody else (they're usually in war with someone thanks to senior)
    b.) declining them their freedom- this automatically ends every war that junior was in (white peace) and starts war between senior and junior. This part of my idea is more interesting: junior is set as rebelled- so after war senior can annex them for free (recently annexed provinces of junior get some nasty modifier increasing RR) or restore PU- this one can be done only through event. Junior also cedes half of conquered provinces to conqueror (no nasty modifiers- but no cores too of course) and becomes junior again. In this case Junior can't try fighting for their independence in next 30 years.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixxer5 View Post
    So this should be simply blocked by adding to events/decisions line about not being junior. Senior should get events of spreading of Protestanism in Junior country and make own decisions.
    BTW- If we're talking about PUs:
    1. When senior i inherits junior, he gets cores on all provinces of same culture group- I've no problem with that. But if senior inherits some different CG junior than he gets simply pain in a**. How about granting at least first step towards core for him? Or some other province modifier decreasing RR and increasing manpower and taxes? This junior country was subject to senior from some time anyway- it's big change to be part of different country- but much less if it's by diplomacy (so annexing vassal should grant such half-cores too) than by war.
    2. Relations between senior and junior: I don't entirely get this thing. Junior partner might be rebellious of course, but no one would openly (except starting a rebellion) start sending insults and try to otherwise insult senior. Mostly because senior is usually much bigger and much more dangerous than junior. And insulting/trying to openly weaken sovereign... Well- I'd gladly visit such noble with my army and explain him that he's doing wrong. So if Junior wants to revolt by some reason- fine. Senior should get event with two options:
    a.) granting freedom to junior, also making white peace for them with everybody else (they're usually in war with someone thanks to senior)
    b.) declining them their freedom- this automatically ends every war that junior was in (white peace) and starts war between senior and junior. This part of my idea is more interesting: junior is set as rebelled- so after war senior can annex them for free (recently annexed provinces of junior get some nasty modifier increasing RR) or restore PU- this one can be done only through event. Junior also cedes half of conquered provinces to conqueror (no nasty modifiers- but no cores too of course) and becomes junior again. In this case Junior can't try fighting for their independence in next 30 years.
    As I see it:
    Unnumbered: That could be a pain in the proverbial. You'd need to adjust the current event so it can't fire on Juniors and write a separate event that fires for Juniors sending the decision to the Senior and then another event for the Senior dealing with it (although I think with some clever work it could be possible to reuse the normal event). What would you do if a player is in a Junior situation? They have to sit through the AI making a decision for them, and then maybe getting another event telling them what happened?
    1: I've had an idea floating around my head for a while that perhaps there could be a system where a Senior gains cores on a Junior after a suitably long period of time (100 years? Double the Integrate time), but they would lose them instantly if the country ever got out of the PU.
    2: I think it's to represent the aristocracy or other ruling class of the Junior trying to subtly undermine your rule.
    Last edited by SirkTheMonkey; 11-08-2012 at 17:38. Reason: Removed a redundancy that was removed.
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  15. #15
    In meiou already are events sending events to other nations so I suppose it's possible at least. Junior- if lead by player- should have decision instead of event- so he can choose some good moment to break PU.

    1. Why not simply apply meiou core system? With some little bonus for province bordering with Senior realm? That would be also nice to have some kind of decision blocking inheritance (how about decision firing after kings death?)

    2. Yes, I get it of course- but almost every true king would take his forces and come for a meeting with aristocracy (I usually have really big armies and empires) rather than accept their lack of loyalty.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixxer5 View Post
    1. Why not simply apply meiou core system? With some little bonus for province bordering with Senior realm? That would be also nice to have some kind of decision blocking inheritance (how about decision firing after kings death?)
    Ack, why didn't I think of that. Some tweaking of the regular coring system would have it work as a way for the overlord to get legitimacy.
    I suspect Inheritance is a hard-coded feature but I don't know anything for sure either way.
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  17. #17
    Well- simply block inheritance at all decreasing junior trust to minimum. As far as I know PU is only thing trust plays some role. After normal PU is blocked, new system based on events/decisions can be added.

  18. #18
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  19. #19
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    On the subject of vassals turning religion as mentioned in another topic, what about a spy option like the HREmperor has to enforce religious unity. So a liege can send out a spy to a heretic vassal asking them to convert back.

  20. #20
    Reasonably pious overlords should have a diplomatic option to request religious unity from their vassals with whom they have strong relations (trust could play a role as well). Rebellious vassals could refuse, but there should be a way to ask.

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