A Paradox 4X Space Game?

I still feel a team up between Paradox and Fantasy Flight Games could be interesting. Paradox excel at making good board games into great computer games. At least the entire EU-franchise plays very much like a board game. Doing a computer game based on Twilight Imperium could be very interesting. While the races might be somewhat identical (or at least as much so at in typical 4x games) the focus on intrigue and politics would be great.

I'm hoping that Endless Space modders will make some interesting starting scenarios where not everyone starts with one planet and two ships.

+1 for Farscape

One thing that bothers me the most is how flat Space 4X games are, the closest I've seen really to a real 3D universe is the X series, and that isn't a true 4X (depends on how you define it). Even that series is essentially dozens of flat 2D map with some places put up or down on the z axis to make it look more natural (and it took a few games before they decided to even do that).

Eh, I believe MOO3 tried to have a 3d map, and it was one (of many) reasons it absolutely sucked.

Don_Quigleone said:

Eh, I believe MOO3 tried to have a 3d map, and it was one (of many) reasons it absolutely sucked.

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MOO3 wasn't great for many reasons, but I would argue that a 3d map wasn't one of them.

Now, I firmly admit to drinking the Kool-Aid, but Sword of the Stars is the best 4x game I've played (note: I've recently bought MOO2 but I haven't played much). SotS makes excellent use of a 3d strategic map and it really adds to the depth of space strategy; with a little practice on 2d and disk galaxies, the transition to full mind-bending 3d is not as bad and starts to make sense.

I find SotS 3D maps quite confusing. I see this as a pointless complexity. If you were to project the 3D map on to a 2D plane, you would still have the same strategic decisions to make, because the stupid node lines would be the same.

Also, many galaxies, including our own, are relatively plane compared to their sizes. For pretty much the same reasons as Jupiter's, Saturn's, Uranus' and Neptune's rings form a plane around the planet, that's why the galaxy forms an approximate plane around the galactic core.

Regarding the map, I find GalCiv2's approach to be the best so far, although I would have liked more realistic scales and distances between planetary systems. I also kind of like Endless Space's approach to the map, except for the stupid node lines. It makes sense to represent the entire planetary system of a star/stars on the galaxy map, instead of each planet, because its size is very small compared to the distances between systems.

podcat said:

Twilight Imperium is a great game we play sometimes at the office

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Then you should try Dominions of Supremacy when you get a chance, don't know if it has been officially released yet. It's practically MOO2++ as a board game.

And yes, please make a Paradox version of space 4X..

Cybvep said:

Sins of a Solar Empire?

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I played it but it's to much of an RTS and to little of a real strategy game

RTS games should be called RTT (real time tactical)

Yeah, it's probably more tactical than strategic. A bit like Starcraft, but in space. Still, it has active pause, so it can be quite fun in MP.

No, please no. We have some awesome games in this genre right now. Distant Worlds (often called Europa Universalis in space), Endless Space and Galactic Civilization 2 is still not so old. No need, no need.

If you think about it, of course there would not be a lot of differences in species/technology, especially if you don't want to go out-of-the-window insane with the physics/realism. The laws of physics apply on Earth as well as on Mars or any other place in the universe. Same with biology: There are certain requirements to be met, like the diameter of bones/whatever support structure a creature uses to it's mass. Chemistry also, which affects biology and the shape of organisms as well. (The theory of) Evolution dictates hwo species evolve not only on Earth, but everywhere where life emerges.
From a scientific point of view, a galactic 4X game would indeed be boring, since it would be pretty much all the same with maybe a different amount of eyes.

It could just as well be the opposite. There are many forms of life on Earth alone and there are many reasons why other life forms would look and behave differently. I think that it is a (deterministic) misconception that we try to imagine other species as humanoids with slightly different skin colour or sth - for all we know, they can be completely alien if they evolved in a different environment. As for technology, other species can be years ahead or years behind human beings and can have technology that is completely different than our own. I won't even mention culture. Hell, look at the diversity among humans on just one planet.

Cybvep said:

Hell, look at the diversity among humans on just one planet.

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Looking at the diversity of animals on just this one planet tells me intelligent alien spieces if they exist won't look anything like Humans.

And this is a common error. Life on this planet is NOT very different from each other - at least in it's higher organized forms. Most animals have either 4, 6 or 8 limbs. Big land animals tend to have the same body proportions, bone structure etc. and that throughout the (observable) history of life. Sure an ant looks different than an ape, but within their respective biotopes/biological niches you find their immediate rivals to look same-ish (for another example look at bat - bird - pterosaur). This again repeats itself throughout evolution. And as 'life' has a very narrow window of physical parameters to exist in, life-forms on different planets wouldn't look all too differen't - since they would have to cope with similar problems and difficulties.
Take the shark and the doplhin for example: Differen't lines of evolution, same habitat, similar looks. Compare it to the respective inhabitants of this habitat in Earth's history and you will find similar looking animals.

So if we define life in general as we do it now, then the window stays very narrow. If we don't, then the possibilities are wider, but that leads to a definition problem (read Lem's 'Solaris' on that matter). Maybe Jupiter's atmosphere is one giant sentient being of gas and we are unable to identify - let alone communicate with - it, but this is just beyond the border of what i would call 'science'.

I didn't say that (sentient) life would have to look humanoid - only that it would somehow have a resemblance to an organism occupying a similar habitat on earth. I'm all up for hyper-intelligent slugs.

Recent 4xs have been a bit disapointing tbh.

Actually my favourite space strategy game is Starwars Rebellion, far better imo than MMO3. It was flawed in several ways but the different missions that characters could do, a a great contruction system very similar to HOI by the way, ai control for some tasks, as well as varied events and methods of conquest was great.

The semi remake Empire at war wasnt that great, think it tried to add too much together plus felt a little too fast, I prefer to sit and think things through, while it was a rush. Other nice ones were SofaS is really pretty much like Empire at war style and is a little too fast for me. MOO2 had issues with some types of tech imo. Namely first person to get plasma cannons can dominate utterly.

Maybe Paradox could make a future earth game?

So if we define life in general as we do it now, then the window stays very narrow. If we don't, then the possibilities are wider, but that leads to a definition problem (read Lem's 'Solaris' on that matter). Maybe Jupiter's atmosphere is one giant sentient being of gas and we are unable to identify - let alone communicate with - it, but this is just beyond the border of what i would call 'science'.

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I would be glad if you gave me a definition of life. As far as I know, this is a question that philosophers and scientists are still trying to answer.

Of course that I read "Solaris" - every Polish geek did . Anyway, 200 years from now we may be able to identify beings in environments which we thought were inhospitable, so I think that science-fiction, which often describes a distant future or even history in different galaxies, can tackle on the subject in various manners. It is supposed to appeal to our imagination, after all. ATM there are too many generic worlds IMO, a result of laziness.

And this is a common error. Life on this planet is NOT very different from each other - at least in it's higher organized forms. Most animals have either 4, 6 or 8 limbs. Big land animals tend to have the same body proportions, bone structure etc. and that throughout the (observable) history of life. Sure an ant looks different than an ape, but within their respective biotopes/biological niches you find their immediate rivals to look same-ish (for another example look at bat - bird - pterosaur). This again repeats itself throughout evolution.

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Of course, but there are no patterns set in stone, as evolution is a constant, slow and random process. When conditions change, entities adapt or die.

I didn't say that (sentient) life would have to look humanoid - only that it would somehow have a resemblance to an organism occupying a similar habitat on earth. I'm all up for hyper-intelligent slugs.

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Similar - maybe, but even an Earth-like planet would be different than Earth, so conditions would be different. They may be similar on a broad scale, but even small ones can result in great divergences. That alone would change history and paths of development and thus you end up with diversity. Civilization would look a bit different if dolphins ruled Earth, right? Anyway, it's good that we agree that alien life doesn't have to look humanoid. Let the slugs conquer the cosmos!

Also, let us not forget that 4X games don't have to include aliens. You can make equally interesting games with competing human factions. A game on a "smaller" scale without the FTL drive would be interesting, I think. FTL drives violate physics as we know it, after all. Of course, our understanding of the Universe and its laws change over time .

nestorius said:

Recent 4xs have been a bit disapointing tbh.

Actually my favourite space strategy game is Starwars Rebellion, far better imo than MMO3. It was flawed in several ways but the different missions that characters could do, a a great contruction system very similar to HOI by the way, ai control for some tasks, as well as varied events and methods of conquest was great.

The semi remake Empire at war wasnt that great, think it tried to add too much together plus felt a little too fast, I prefer to sit and think things through, while it was a rush. Other nice ones were SofaS is really pretty much like Empire at war style and is a little too fast for me. MOO2 had issues with some types of tech imo. Namely first person to get plasma cannons can dominate utterly.

Maybe Paradox could make a future earth game?

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Man I loved Rebellion, that is still one of my favourite all time 4x games. Thanks to the two shield generators trick to keep invasions at bay I'd actually do nothing for a good long while. In a big universe it can lead to a great challenge. Nowadays I just play Distant Worlds Legends when I need a fix. Despite its clunky interface, I love the real-time pausable element, the techs, the pretty map, and the fleet design (once you play around with it). Considering how small the development team is (one person I believe) it's amazing how unique it is. Of course the ai could be a whole lot better but I can say that about every game I've played. If Paradox owned the rights to the franchise and helped bring about a DW2, I would be one happy camper.

I'd love to see them incorporate a CK style character/avatar gameplay element in a 4x game, have a dynastic corporate sort of character. Falling in and out of favor in a corporate/political system trying to maintain your powerbase within your faction and competing with external entities. If any company could make a truly grand sci-fi game where you can get into the knitty gritty details of planetary management as well as macro galactic level it would be Paradox.