I most certainly can honestly tell you that Chronicler thinks it's a good idea for Muscovy to attack the HRE before forming Russia.Originally Posted by stnikolauswagne
That said, we agree on the HRE. I did play "form HRE as Russia just to see if I can" once, but that was a challenge for fun rather than a strategy.
Ah well, yeah, what I meant is "better" in SP. I should probably re-structure the whole post since some stuff is redundant, but oh well. I agree btw that Mercantilism can often be an alternative, but for Russia? Not that much.
Chronicler also maintains that its a good strategy for England to annex byzantium in the first year and to kill the oe with 10k troops.I most certainly can honestly tell you that Chronicler thinks it's a good idea for Muscovy to attack the HRE before forming Russia.
If you're talking SP, then Persia is not in the Ottoman sphere. The Ottomans are in Russia's sphere.
And yes, I know, stniko.
Yeah, I am indeed talking MP here, since, lets be honest, in SP the whole world is in your sphere. I bet I could build up a decent Naval Russia that reaches to the pacific and owns the carribean at the same time without all that much trouble.If you're talking SP, then Persia is not in the Ottoman sphere. The Ottomans are in Russia's sphere.
And yes, I know, stniko.
Though ironically this makes mercantile Russia valid again.... Thats just wrong.
Ignoring the confusion, what works well in MP may not be ideal for SP. SP Russia should go mercantile simply because SP Russia can absorb Asia wholesale, which is a fundamentally different strategy from what you're used to doing in MP.
Or Russia in SP can go Free Trade and not only rule its own CoTs but everyone elses :P
I personaly would prefer to play as Novgorod, mostly because it suits me as a player more then Muscovy.
As Moscow you can form russia in few years, forming russia at 1415 is not hard. Even in MP(unless you get disconnected XD). When you formed russia you get like 15 cores, and loads of muney from novgorod provinces. If you form russia by this date you can reach siberia around 1450 or earlier(possibly 1430) with ease, because AI GH is derp, and ussualy there is no GH player. You just need MD and like 2 levels ahead of GH to beat it dearly. After you fully colonized 1st GH province you can open the champange, and start building their cavalry(and propably infantry as they got better infantry than yours - still cavalry is more important). Then you take mission to take TO provinces, and you get western infantry.
Try doing same with novgorod.
Problem is: Getting into siberia before you westernize is suicide. As novgorod you can be fully westernized as soon as somebody has 20 tech more than you. For example i westernized from eastern tech and army to western tech and army in 1 month through a great man event and moving the capital to st. petersburg. This was in 1470. I would think muscovy would have a harder time meeting those requirements.
LOL.
Getting into siberia mean you got 100k troops, which mean that asians at best are equal at tech with you, (and propably not, because as I SAD : GO LT 5 before you conquer GH - to get better modifires) and propably worse.
Good thing of forming russia asap, is that you can westernize much quicker when being russia because of + 2 cent, aspecialy if all your slider moves were on centralization before you formed russia (it is 2 moves, because you formed russia in 1415).
Then if it is mp you will propably have the russian patriarchate, and go innovate after reaching enough cent to westernize. As you get decision to move +1 on innovate, and and events moving to innovate are pretty frequent, you could sold some uncored province to for example holland, and westernized at 1450, because you lack in tech, because you are not trading country(which is otherwise for for novgordo which is trading country and thus is better with tech, which stops its centralization(because you move free trade) and westernization(because you are better in tech, which mean you got problem with being 20 techs behind)).
In SP it is a lot harder to westernize this way, but you still can do it(you need to try selling kouban to holland XD).
As from forming russia and militia act you get +3 moves to centralization, you need only 3 moves to centralization(if i am not wrong - wiki says it start with 2 decentralization) and 6 on innovate, which is 9 slider moves. But as you get + on innovate from recruiting act, it changes to 8 moves. If you get one or two events, well you can westernize as soon as holland got 20 techs ahead of you(which is reachable at 1450 propably - if you invest only in land and gov tech).
As you westernize, you just use the decision to move capital to st.petersburg(I tend to rename it with name of current ruler :P), and get +3 stab, and you got +1 stab from which you can easily recover to +3(while waiting for centra moves). I rly dunno why u say that moving into siberia is suicide(as you can just reduce your stab cost by staying serf, and after westernizing moving back to narrowminded if you get events), as orthodox religion got realy low stab cost, and you just convert everything you can to it before you reach +2 innovate(so faster you conquer => faster you can convert => faster you can forget about missionaries(because you reached siberia, which means you own most of muslim horde provinces and propably, you sent missionaries to most of them).
Then you just move make up to maximum centralization, and all the way back to narrow(for missionaries, which will you need after conquering asians - even if you gone to siberia first you will need them dearly), and waiting until you get LT 13, so you can westernize your troops(even if you acquired muslim cavalry, because it is better to have your own(in case you lose muslim provinces XD), plus before LT 13, westerners, does not get uber superior infantry...).
And i realy dunno why getting into siberia before you westernize would be suicide nick. It is like you would say that early colonization is suicide.
Last edited by Iwanow; 31-07-2012 at 14:08.
^^
I'm sorry, I'm sure there were good points in that post, but I didn't follow you at all. Could you please break that up into different paragraphs or something?
True i find it quite unreadable... sry, will edit it XD.^^
I'm sorry, I'm sure there were good points in that post, but I didn't follow you at all. Could you please break that up into different paragraphs or something?
EDIT: EDITED XD
Last edited by Iwanow; 31-07-2012 at 14:09.
Look Iwanow, its no use discussing something with you. For example it doesnt matter at all when you form russia in regards to slider moves, you will get those 2 centra moves before you can westernize. And NO, novgorod won't focus on getting FT 5 before westernizing, why should they?
Another thing you claimed: After losing 5 stab from westernization you gain 3 from St. Petersburg. Basic math suggests you still need 2 stab at that point. Due to the +50% stab from western influences it will take at least a year even if you did not expand into wrong culture-wrong religion-no core land. If you do that your stabcost increases almost exponentially. Btw, westernizing in 1450 is not really possible I guess, as a free trading high-tech country I was only able to outgrow japan by 20 tech in around 1460 and Japan techs half as fast as Russia.
Well maybe, but then they can westernize at the same time, with the difference, muscowy conquer more land before it.
And after westernization one of them has +2 or 3 free trade and the other has -4. I really dont see appeal in conquering stuff before westernizing, since as I said, it just slows down your recovery from the -8 Stab you gain.
Well if you start conquering the horde in 1420, you will have 5 + 82,5 colonists which translates, to at least 17 provinces colonized. as you start with +2 narrow you gain 0,65 missionaries a year, so it is 5 + 32,5 missionares - but probably little less, because you will start moving innovate at some point. So as you are quite capable of converting all provinces you conquered, the stab cost, comparing to income gain, will propably be unimportant.
So you wanna tell me, that all those poor grain and wool provinces with some iron and copper mixed in (which are really not rich by that point) will all bring in enough money to pay for their stabcost in one year? Thats just purely illogical. Russia does not become "rich" until it gets deep into siberia and Iron starts to be worth something....
Never mind that
>implying you'll be set to take on the Golden Horde in 1420
As much as it pains me to say but Iwanow does have a point. As I said before the Basis of all discussion should be that every war against the AI is trivially winable. Taking on the GH in 1420 might be stretching it a bit but it certainly is possible, though not easily.
It seems incredibly chancey, to say the least. I'm not sure from where the economic base is coming, and absent that you're not going to be able to afford the troops needed to beat the GH stacks. Let's face it, early Russian lands are poor, and if you're too poor to afford troops and you piss off the Mongols, you're gonna have a bad time.
Actualy not, you can easily support like 60k stack, after unifying russia lands. If you form russia around 1415, you can easily gain most of russia cores around 1420. Then remember one thing i just have learned - cores you have on golden horde, gives your units 4x support limit(instead of 2 when you siege, and 3 when you occupy), so you can stack quite decent stacks there, and outmaneuver golden horde, scorch earth when you see it is needed, destroy its manpower base, and prestige by taking capital when it is possible, and as golden horde in 1420 is likely to be at TSC, use rebbels, and screw then over, aspecialy due your campaighns in novgorod, and lithuania, you propably gained a lot of war tradition(if it is MP - GH gained none propably, because in mp poland block gh from doing anything - unless it border Ottomans - but if it border ottomans, well...)
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